Zompist Bboard Again

Also note that typesetters' quotation is not specifically North American, as it can be seen in some non-North American writing, and likewise logical quotation is not specifically British, as there are North American publications that require logical quotation (e.g. the American Bar Association formerly specified logical quotation in its publications until it was forced to adopt typesetters' quotation by the US gov't).

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2026 3:32 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2026 3:23 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2026 2:48 pm

Thank you!

Note though that very many programmers, American and Canadian programmers included, prefer logical quotation, and logical quotation is the norm on Wikipedia even in articles written using American spelling.

What would logical quotation be in this case?

"I should say 'sorry'", I replied.

The key thing to remember about logical quotation is that punctuation only goes inside the quotes if it is part of that being quoted itself verbatim.

Thank you.

How, if at all, can you form the possessive of a group whose plural name is the same as the singular? Would you write about "the Zulu's traditions"? Or would you spell it in some different way? Or would you try to avoid the whole question by always rephrasing it as something like "the traditions of the Zulu"?

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Oct 10, 2026 7:14 am How, if at all, can you form the possessive of a group whose plural name is the same as the singular? Would you write about "the Zulu's traditions"? Or would you spell it in some different way? Or would you try to avoid the whole question by always rephrasing it as something like "the traditions of the Zulu"?

"The Zulu's traditions" is perfectly fine.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Oct 10, 2026 9:20 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Oct 10, 2026 7:14 am How, if at all, can you form the possessive of a group whose plural name is the same as the singular? Would you write about "the Zulu's traditions"? Or would you spell it in some different way? Or would you try to avoid the whole question by always rephrasing it as something like "the traditions of the Zulu"?

"The Zulu's traditions" is perfectly fine.

Thank you!

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Oct 10, 2026 7:14 am How, if at all, can you form the possessive of a group whose plural name is the same as the singular? Would you write about "the Zulu's traditions"? Or would you spell it in some different way? Or would you try to avoid the whole question by always rephrasing it as something like "the traditions of the Zulu"?

The correct answer is, obviously, the traditions bamaZulu.

(Less facetiously, I think I would go with the last of your sentences.)

EDIT: I think you can also use the preposed possessive if you move the apostrophe: ‘the Zulus’ traditions’. For that matter, ‘the traditions of the Zulus’ works too, and sounds slightly less formal. But in natural speech I think I would just talk about ‘Zulu traditions’.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Oct 10, 2026 9:27 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Oct 10, 2026 7:14 am How, if at all, can you form the possessive of a group whose plural name is the same as the singular? Would you write about "the Zulu's traditions"? Or would you spell it in some different way? Or would you try to avoid the whole question by always rephrasing it as something like "the traditions of the Zulu"?

The correct answer is, obviously, the traditions bamaZulu.

(Less facetiously, I think I would go with the last of your sentences.)

EDIT: I think you can also use the preposed possessive if you move the apostrophe: ‘the Zulus’ traditions’. For that matter, ‘the traditions of the Zulus’ works too, and sounds slightly less formal. But in natural speech I think I would just talk about ‘Zulu traditions’.

Thank you, too!

I do have to say, though, that "the traditions of the Zulu" in particular makes me think of some antiquated, Orientalistic view of things, as if "the Zulu" were some supposedly exotic, primitive group.

And yeah, I would personally just go with "Zulu traditions" myself.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Oct 10, 2026 9:38 am I do have to say, though, that "the traditions of the Zulu" in particular makes me think of some antiquated, Orientalistic view of things, as if "the Zulu" were some supposedly exotic, primitive group.

Indeed.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Oct 10, 2026 9:38 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Oct 10, 2026 9:38 am I do have to say, though, that "the traditions of the Zulu" in particular makes me think of some antiquated, Orientalistic view of things, as if "the Zulu" were some supposedly exotic, primitive group.

Indeed.

For some reason, though, I don't get quite the same connotations from "the Zulu's traditions" or "the Zulus' traditions", even though honestly as I mentioned I'd just go with "Zulu traditions".

A good comparison would be with "the traditions of the Americans", which sounds odd (because "the Americans" aren't some remote tribe), unlike "the Americans' traditions" or simply "American traditions".

I am not a native English speaker, but Zulu traditions seems like the most correct form to me.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat Oct 10, 2026 10:02 am I am not a native English speaker, but Zulu traditions seems like the most correct form to me.

I am a native English speaker, and this seems the most correct to me too.

For me, the plural of Zulu is Zulus, so:

1. the Zulu's traditions,
2. the Zulus' traditions and
3. the Zulu traditions

all have slightly different meanings, even when one doesn't have a particular Zulu or group of them in mind. No. 1 refers to an archtypal Zulu, no. 2 to your actual Zulus, and no. 3 could happily include traditions that living Zulus have forgotten. Note also that only in the third is traditions the head noun for the.

I similarly view "the Zulu" as referring to archtypical Zulus, while "the Zulus" refers to actual individual Zulus in the plural.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Oct 10, 2026 5:30 pm I similarly view "the Zulu" as referring to archtypical Zulus, while "the Zulus" refers to actual individual Zulus in the plural.

I finally found an ethnic group name with no singular/plural distinction in my speech - Sioux. I think I would then choose meaning 2 over meaning 1 in the interpretation of the Sioux's traditions. Inconsistently, I sound the final sibilant in the plurals of Iroquois and Quebecois, or at least I do this week, though I am not at all confident about the spellings of the possessive plurals. I can see an argument for possessive singular Iroquois's and possessive plural Iroquois'!

Richard W wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2026 11:04 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Oct 10, 2026 5:30 pm I similarly view "the Zulu" as referring to archtypical Zulus, while "the Zulus" refers to actual individual Zulus in the plural.

I finally found an ethnic group name with no singular/plural distinction in my speech - Sioux. I think I would then choose meaning 2 over meaning 1 in the interpretation of the Sioux's traditions. Inconsistently, I sound the final sibilant in the plurals of Iroquois and Quebecois, or at least I do this week, though I am not at all confident about the spellings of the possessive plurals. I can see an argument for possessive singular Iroquois's and possessive plural Iroquois'!

I make a distinction similar to that between "the Zulu" and "the Zulus" with "the Sioux", "the Iroquois", and "the Quebecois" depending on whether I pronounce them with a /z/ even though I spell them the same way either way.

When, if ever, would you capitalize numbers written out? Of course you'd use lowercase when writing something like "There were five chickens in the coop." But what about, for instance, "The number five has different symbolic connotations in a number of different cultures"?

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2026 3:47 am When, if ever, would you capitalize numbers written out? Of course you'd use lowercase when writing something like "There were five chickens in the coop." But what about, for instance, "The number five has different symbolic connotations in a number of different cultures"?

I don't think I have ever seen a capitalized numeral in English, except, of course, as part of a proper name such as The Jackson Five. Keep in mind that, unlike German, common nouns are not capitalized in English.