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Re: English questions
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2026 4:27 pm
by zompist
Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Oct 06, 2026 3:28 pm
Thank you!
zompist wrote: ↑Tue Oct 06, 2026 3:23 pm
or implies things like plumbing work. Alternatives include trainee or intern.
I am thinking of blue-collar work. Trainee might work, but do internships usually involve training that counts as a professional qualification?
Yes, that's the whole idea. An internship may be paid or not, but it's something you can put on your resume (CV).
Is this for your SF book? If so you have more leeway, and indeed a conworlding opportunity
Re: English questions
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2026 4:36 pm
by Raphael
zompist wrote: ↑Tue Oct 06, 2026 4:27 pm
Is this for your SF book? If so you have more leeway, and indeed a conworlding opportunity
Yes, it is. In that context, I'm admittedly rather implausibly assuming that parts of our time's German educational and professional training system survive for a looooooong time into the future. The aspect I'm using is bog-standard non-academic on-the-job training which you can not just put on your CV, but use as the main "qualifications" part of it. Not at all conworlding for me, but for college-educated USA-nians, it might well sound exotic enough that it comes across as conworlding to them

.
Re: English questions
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2026 5:37 pm
by Lērisama
Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Oct 06, 2026 4:36 pm
Yes, it is. In that context, I'm admittedly rather implausibly assuming that parts of our time's German educational and professional training system survive for a looooooong time into the future. The aspect I'm using is bog-standard non-academic on-the-job training which you can not just put on your CV, but use as the main "qualifications" part of it. Not at all conworlding for me, but for college-educated USA-nians, it might well sound exotic enough that it comes across as conworlding to them

.
Such things do exist here, although not to the extent that they used to, or that they do in Germany, and having been a beta-reader, I think it's what I'd prefer in your context. The only reason I'm saying this separately is that my PM from yesterday didn't seem to send, so I've sent another one and am putting a notice here.
Re: English questions
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2026 5:40 pm
by Raphael
Lērisama wrote: ↑Tue Oct 06, 2026 5:37 pm
Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Oct 06, 2026 4:36 pm
Yes, it is. In that context, I'm admittedly rather implausibly assuming that parts of our time's German educational and professional training system survive for a looooooong time into the future. The aspect I'm using is bog-standard non-academic on-the-job training which you can not just put on your CV, but use as the main "qualifications" part of it. Not at all conworlding for me, but for college-educated USA-nians, it might well sound exotic enough that it comes across as conworlding to them

.
Such things do exist here, although not to the extent that they used to, or that they do in Germany, and having been a beta-reader, I think it's what I'd prefer in your context. The only reason I'm saying this separately is that my PM from yesterday didn't seem to send, so I've sent another one and am putting a notice here.
Thank you! About to check out your new PM...
Re: English questions
Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 2:25 am
by hwhatting
Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Oct 06, 2026 4:36 pm
Yes, it is. In that context, I'm admittedly rather implausibly assuming that parts of our time's German educational and professional training system survive for a looooooong time into the future. The aspect I'm using is bog-standard non-academic on-the-job training which you can not just put on your CV, but use as the main "qualifications" part of it. Not at all conworlding for me, but for college-educated USA-nians, it might well sound exotic enough that it comes across as conworlding to them

.
The idea of introducing German-style apprenticeships seems to enjoy some popularity among policy wonks in Britain and the U.S., so a scenario where this moves from wonkery to actual policy is not totally unrealistic.
Re: English questions
Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 2:41 am
by Raphael
hwhatting wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 2:25 am
Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Oct 06, 2026 4:36 pm
Yes, it is. In that context, I'm admittedly rather implausibly assuming that parts of our time's German educational and professional training system survive for a looooooong time into the future. The aspect I'm using is bog-standard non-academic on-the-job training which you can not just put on your CV, but use as the main "qualifications" part of it. Not at all conworlding for me, but for college-educated USA-nians, it might well sound exotic enough that it comes across as conworlding to them

.
The idea of introducing German-style apprenticeships seems to enjoy some popularity among policy wonks in Britain and the U.S., so a scenario where this moves from wonkery to actual policy is not totally unrealistic.
Further spread wouldn't really be needed, since the story starts out in Germany (though it's written in English).
Re: English questions
Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 7:20 am
by jal
To me as a non-native speaker, "apprentice" either refers to the Trump show, but more typical mediaeval fantasy, especially a wizard apprentice.
JAL
Re: English questions
Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 7:38 am
by Raphael
jal wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 7:20 am
To me as a non-native speaker, "apprentice" either refers to the Trump show, but more typical mediaeval fantasy, especially a wizard apprentice.
JAL
Is there an equivalent Dutch term?
Re: English questions
Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 7:44 am
by jal
Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 7:38 amIs there an equivalent Dutch term?
I'd say it's mostly just translated with "leerling", "student".
JAL
Re: English questions
Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 8:03 am
by Raphael
jal wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 7:44 am
Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 7:38 amIs there an equivalent Dutch term?
I'd say it's mostly just translated with "leerling", "student".
JAL
Thank you!
Re: English questions
Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 8:14 am
by Travis B.
To me apprentice refers to someone who is in job training at some time distance in the past, back when they had guilds and such. And yes, its modern analogue is the intern.
Re: English questions
Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 10:13 am
by Raphael
Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 8:14 am
And yes, its modern analogue is the intern.
Well, I think there are limits to the analogy. An old-time apprentice could, and in places where the concept still exists, a modern apprentice can, treat their apprenticeship as a full-fledged professional training that qualifies them for the job in question. How much of a chance would someone in today's USA have to get hired for anything if they'd tell their would-be employers "I've never been to college, and I've never been to any kind of vocational school, either, but I once did this really great internship"?
Re: English questions
Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 11:06 am
by jal
Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 10:13 amWell, I think there are limits to the analogy.
All analogies have limits, I'd say :). Back when apprenticeships existed, there was no practical higher education - if you wanted to have a certain job, you needed to become an apprentice.
JAL
Re: English questions
Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 2:35 pm
by alice
"Apprentice" comes before "journeyman", does not it?
Re: English questions
Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 2:41 pm
by Raphael
alice wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 2:35 pm
"Apprentice" comes before "journeyman", does not it?
Yes, I think so.
Re: English questions
Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 3:09 pm
by zompist
Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 10:13 am
How much of a chance would someone in today's USA have to get hired for anything if they'd tell their would-be employers "I've never been to college, and I've never been to any kind of vocational school, either, but I once did this really great internship"?
Narrowly: qualifications are exactly what an internship is for. It's a Job Lite™. If you get a internship at a publishing company, that is a very good step toward getting a job at one.
More broadly: if this is the German system, you have to assume that non-Germans do not understand it, and you're going to have to explain what it means; simply choosing a term won't do it. Outsiders (e.g. Americans) will probably assume that it is coercive and inferior to university education— deciding your entire future at too young an age. I point this out only so that you're aware of the perception and can address it in the book.
Re: English questions
Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 3:18 pm
by Raphael
zompist wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 3:09 pm
Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 10:13 am
How much of a chance would someone in today's USA have to get hired for anything if they'd tell their would-be employers "I've never been to college, and I've never been to any kind of vocational school, either, but I once did this really great internship"?
Narrowly: qualifications are exactly what an internship is for. It's a Job Lite™. If you get a internship at a publishing company, that is a very good step toward getting a job at one.
More broadly: if this is the German system, you have to assume that non-Germans do not understand it, and you're going to have to explain what it means; simply choosing a term won't do it. Outsiders (e.g. Americans) will probably assume that it is coercive and inferior to university education— deciding your entire future at too young an age. I point this out only so that you're aware of the perception and can address it in the book.
Thank you!
Re: English questions
Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 3:38 pm
by Travis B.
Note that here in the US internships are commonly combined with college education, e.g. oftentimes people will do internships in the summer between semesters at a university.
Re: English questions
Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 4:29 pm
by Raphael
Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 3:38 pm
Note that here in the US internships are commonly combined with college education, e.g. oftentimes people will do internships in the summer between semesters at a university.
Which is part of why I don't think it makes sense to compare them to apprenticeships.
Re: English questions
Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2026 3:32 am
by hwhatting
jal wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 7:44 am
Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 7:38 amIs there an equivalent Dutch term?
I'd say it's mostly just translated with "leerling", "student".
It used to be called
Lehrling in German, but then about 40-50 years ago the usual well-meaning people decided that it's demeaning or old-fashioned or something like that, and
Auszubildende(r) was introduced as the official, legal term. In everyday speech this was shortened to
Azubi, and that's what you hear mostly nowadays.