United States Politics Thread 47

[Travis B.]

I tried to convince people to support Harris, but I feel like this is going too far in the other direction.

But but but we have to show people how right-wing the Dems are by attacking them at every opportunity (with the fact that the other major party is a bunch of real live fascists being merely an inconvenient sidenote).

Centrist Democrats constantly provoke leftists. They see Republicans as a force of nature they must always capitulate to. Leftists are the actual targets of their ire.

Even if centrist Democrats don't like leftists, within a FPTP system they are still preferable over outright fascists. Yeah, voting for them may not feel satisfying, but what feels right is often not the right thing.

To be honest, I really want to ask the people here who said they weren't going to vote for Harris because she wasn't left-wing enough as to whether they are happy now. And yeah, those who didn't vote for Harris over Gaza should at least acknowledge their utter and complete naivete in the very least.

I tried to tell people, but it's human nature to prefer death over disability. Secondly, the American election system is designed to be inconvenient for the poor. It's hard to get voters out in large numbers for candidates they're not enthusiastic about. The answer Harris gave about how her administration would be different from Biden's was not convincing. Also, a lot of people honestly don't understand the concept of voting for a politician they don't support. They're like, "The left was against Gaza, so we opposed them. I don't get it." I don't think a lot of them will ever learn the lesson. The lesson can't be represented within their conceptual framework.

People are idiots who don't understand how the American political system works so they vote or don't vote based on 'feels' in fashions that are highly self-defeating.

Besides, if it's worth supporting genocide just to work within existing institutions, that blunts all liberal criticisms of the Soviet Union. Tankies can say the same thing: Since Soviet genocides were endemic to the system as it existed, it was worth looking the other way to prevent the system from failing. If the Soviet genocides argued for opposing Communism, maybe the same argument can be made against a plutocracy that offers voters a choice between left-Nazism and right-Nazism.

It should be remembered that Trump effectively said that Israel can do whatever it likes with Gaza and now wants to explicitly ethnically cleanse Gaza. The people who opposed Harris over Gaza should have expected this outcome, hence their naivete in somehow thinking Trump would be 'better'.

[Travis B.]

Now Florida is dropping all vaccine requirements for schools. Unfortunately it won't just be the MAGAts themselves who will get infected.

[Lērisama]

Now Florida is dropping all vaccine requirements for schools. Unfortunately it won't just be the MAGAts themselves who will get infected.

I'd tend not to make political distinctions in wishing people not to get various oh so fun diseases, especially children who don't have a say in their parents beliefs on vaccines. Also, you have vaccine requirements at all? The UK had one for smallpox in the 1800s and has relied on common sense / (later on) the NHS since – finally there's a political trend I from the US I can get on board with. Do you mind sending that back on Nigel Farage's plane? I'm sure he'll appreciate the extra chances to suck up to Trump.

[Travis B.]

Now Florida is dropping all vaccine requirements for schools. Unfortunately it won't just be the MAGAts themselves who will get infected.

I'd tend not to make political distinctions in wishing people not to get various oh so fun diseases, especially children who don't have a say in their parents beliefs on vaccines. Also, you have vaccine requirements at all? The UK had one for smallpox in the 1800s and has relied on common sense / (later on) the NHS since – finally there's a political trend I from the US I can get on board with. Do you mind sending that back on Nigel Farage's plane? I'm sure he'll appreciate the extra chances to suck up to Trump.

Vaccine requirements are for public schools in the US and are state-by-state, and people can get medical and, in many states, religious exemptions. Personally, I'm for absolute vaccine requirements for being allowed to simply leave your house, with the sole exemptions being medical and requiring two doctors to agree to them.

And yeah, if only MAGAts got infected due to this I would have no problem with it; to me they deserve to suffer because of their politics. But unfortunately the first people to suffer from this will be the MAGAts' children and those who cannot get (effectively) vaccinated due to being immunocompromised or allergic or like rather than the MAGAts themselves.

[rotting bones]

It should be remembered that Trump effectively said that Israel can do whatever it likes with Gaza and now wants to explicitly ethnically cleanse Gaza. The people who opposed Harris over Gaza should have expected this outcome, hence their naivete in somehow thinking Trump would be 'better'.

Dems didn't place any effective restraint on Israel. They just kept sending more and more weapons. So the choice was between not preventing genocide and cheering it on. If we're always going to be voting for centrists, what's your plan for there to ever be a leftist victory?

[Travis B.]

It should be remembered that Trump effectively said that Israel can do whatever it likes with Gaza and now wants to explicitly ethnically cleanse Gaza. The people who opposed Harris over Gaza should have expected this outcome, hence their naivete in somehow thinking Trump would be 'better'.

Dems didn't place any effective restraint on Israel. They just kept sending more and more weapons. So the choice was between not preventing genocide and cheering it on. If we're always going to be voting for centrists, what's your plan for there to ever be a leftist victory?

In a place like the US, the only real option is building leftist organizations outside of the party structures while simultaneously infiltrating the Dems and pulling them to the left from within. There is no hope for voting for a party to the left of the Democrats in the US outside of some municipal elections (as outside of those limited contexts voting for anyone other than the Democrats is effectively throwing the election to the Republicans), so the only option is to turn the Democrats themselves into a left-wing party.

[Travis B.]

I.e. doing what Zohran Mamdani did, but on a wider scale; fighting against the likes of Chuck Schumer in primary after primary. If the Republicans can primary center-right Republicans, we can primary centrist Democrats.

[rotting bones]

I.e. doing what Zohran Mamdani did, but on a wider scale; fighting against the likes of Chuck Schumer in primary after primary. If the Republicans can primary center-right Republicans, we can primary centrist Democrats.

For this goal to be effective, we must pair our advice to vote for centrists with actual leftist ideas. Without the latter, it appears as though we're joining the centrists in calling leftists idiots for not supporting them.

[MacAnDàil]

But but but we have to show people how right-wing the Dems are by attacking them at every opportunity (with the fact that the other major party is a bunch of real live fascists being merely an inconvenient sidenote).

Centrist Democrats constantly provoke leftists. They see Republicans as a force of nature they must always capitulate to. Leftists are the actual targets of their ire.

To be honest, I really want to ask the people here who said they weren't going to vote for Harris because she wasn't left-wing enough as to whether they are happy now. And yeah, those who didn't vote for Harris over Gaza should at least acknowledge their utter and complete naivete in the very least.

I tried to tell people, but it's human nature to prefer death over disability.

What is the basis for these affirmations?

[rotting bones]

What is the basis for these affirmations?

Centrist Democrats constantly provoke leftists. They see Republicans as a force of nature they must always capitulate to. Leftists are the actual targets of their ire.

From Bill Maher to Destiny to the entire attitude of Harris campaigners towards Democratic Socialists to these: https://www.reddit.com/r/moderatepolitics/s/DKtsFQDex8 https://youtu.be/_J5D2FRBza0?si=jePjFph4ixP-4Bkm ... Basically my entire lived experience.

I tried to tell people, but it's human nature to prefer death over disability.

https://www.reuters.com/article/lifesty ... N7B320259/

[jcb]

President Trump, or maybe should I say "chairman Trump", has done some state capitalism by buying 10% of Intel to create a sovereign wealth fund, a thing that leftists like Bernie Sanders and Matt Bruenig have long advocated for. Trump has also said that he wants to make more "deals" like this.

Why are you cheerleading actual Nazi shit?

This is corrupt crony capitalism, getting the federal government deeply involved in some businesses and not others, for pure political reasons. As one analyst wrote, "When a president can dictate that leading American firms must pay the Treasury a couple of billion dollars in exchange for merger approval, market access, or other regulatory relief, tax policy becomes indistinguishable from extortion." Or another: "The president has assumed a quasi-authority to orchestrate how the private sector operates, both broadly and down to the management and ownership of individual companies."

Oh, and the administration "created a scorecard that rates 553 companies and trade associations on how hard they worked to support and promote President Trump's [bill]", according to Axios. Personal loyalty to the Führer is all that matters to the GOP now. As a reminder, national socialism did not actually create a thousand-year Reich.

While you're applauding this fascist takeover of business, Trump has ended collective bargaining rights for one milllion federal workers. You think Democrats don't promote unions enough; well, fascists destroy unions.

(1) Trump can force businesses' hands without the federal government owning them, as seen with the CBS/Paramount/Colbert situation.
(2) Trump's destruction of unions is very very bad, and I obviously disapprove.
(3) My observation about Democrats restricting themselves remains.

I'm dubious about claims that far leftists cost Harris the election. The group that should be (and so far as I know is) most abashed over their dereliction is Hispanics. (28% for Trump in 2016, 42% in 2024.)

It's been 8 years, and Democrats are still complacent and entitled.
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II9Rfu1foys
- https://youtu.be/7y9ZBhF0oSg?si=qTXYHELJW8a1j4UG&t=504

[MacAnDàil]

What is the basis for these affirmations?

Centrist Democrats constantly provoke leftists. They see Republicans as a force of nature they must always capitulate to. Leftists are the actual targets of their ire.

From Bill Maher to Destiny to the entire attitude of Harris campaigners towards Democratic Socialists to these: https://www.reddit.com/r/moderatepolitics/s/DKtsFQDex8 https://youtu.be/_J5D2FRBza0?si=jePjFph4ixP-4Bkm ... Basically my entire lived experience.

I tried to tell people, but it's human nature to prefer death over disability.

https://www.reuters.com/article/lifesty ... N7B320259/

Was Stephen Hawking against human nature?!

[malloc]

Well the article says Americans would prefer death over disability, not necessarily humans in general, whereas Stephen Hawking was British.

[Raphael]

Well, "human nature" doesn't necessarily mean "good". Some people might manage it to be a bit better than what you might expect based on "human nature". It's arguably "human nature" to be xenophobic; despite that, some people manage it to be relatively less xenophobic.

[MacAnDàil]

Well the article says Americans would prefer death over disability, not necessarily humans in general, whereas Stephen Hawking was British.

Indeed. It's surely just a tendency, not an inherent characteristic.

[Richard W]

Was Stephen Hawking against human nature?!

If suicide is ruled out, when did he have such a choice?

[Ares Land]

Well, "human nature" doesn't necessarily mean "good". Some people might manage it to be a bit better than what you might expect based on "human nature". It's arguably "human nature" to be xenophobic; despite that, some people manage it to be relatively less xenophobic.

Is there even such a thing as 'human nature'? Well, there is - using language is part of it, for instance

I think, though, that appeals to human nature have no place in political debate. Since no one really knows what it is, it's all too easy to define it however you like.

[MacAnDàil]

Was Stephen Hawking against human nature?!

If suicide is ruled out, when did he have such a choice?

Euthanasia when he was in Switzerland?

Well, "human nature" doesn't necessarily mean "good". Some people might manage it to be a bit better than what you might expect based on "human nature". It's arguably "human nature" to be xenophobic; despite that, some people manage it to be relatively less xenophobic.

Is there even such a thing as 'human nature'? Well, there is - using language is part of it, for instance

I think, though, that appeals to human nature have no place in political debate. Since no one really knows what it is, it's all too easy to define it however you like.

There is such a thing as human nature but part of that is being varied from individual to another. Preferences are part of that. What is human nature are really undeniable bits, like, as you say, language. Well, technically a language faculty. Also needing to breathe in oxygen, eat, drink water like other animals.

[malloc]

Stunning news just now. Right wing pundit Charlie Kirk has been shot and possibly killed. Regardless of how one feels about him or political violence in general, this represents quite the massive boost for the GOP and will undoubtedly strengthen popular support for them.

[bradrn]

Stunning news just now. Right wing pundit Charlie Kirk has been shot and possibly killed. Regardless of how one feels about him or political violence in general, this represents quite the massive boost for the GOP and will undoubtedly strengthen popular support for them.

I just want to highlight the way in which you instantly jumped to the worst possible conclusion there…