United States Politics Thread 47

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Ares Land
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by Ares Land »

Raphael wrote: Sun Jun 15, 2025 11:56 am Well, that's the problem with paradoxes: there's sometimes simply no good option. Degrowth, and you get beaten by those who grow, and they end up running things, and your great noble degrowth moves didn't even save the world, because, again, the conquerors who didn't degrowth ended up running things.
That one is easy to solve. Getting into an arms race gets everyone in an absurd and dangerous position.

I think Nort's idea is accidentally a strong argument for degrowth!
jcb wrote: Wed Jun 18, 2025 6:53 pm My own experience with academics has also taught me that they are highly reluctant to fight back, partly because they are afraid, of course, but also because they honestly don't think that they need to. They think that their own brilliance will win out, regardless of the economic laws of the system! They truly believe that the system serves them, even if they remain a lowly-paid lecturer for years/decades.
Here in France, academics are usually left to far-left. Is it different in the US?
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Raphael
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by Raphael »

Ares Land wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 3:50 am
Raphael wrote: Sun Jun 15, 2025 11:56 am Well, that's the problem with paradoxes: there's sometimes simply no good option. Degrowth, and you get beaten by those who grow, and they end up running things, and your great noble degrowth moves didn't even save the world, because, again, the conquerors who didn't degrowth ended up running things.
That one is easy to solve. Getting into an arms race gets everyone in an absurd and dangerous position.

I think Nort's idea is accidentally a strong argument for degrowth!
That's actually not an easy solution at all, because, if other people get into an arms race, and you decide that this can be easily solved by staying out of it, chances are that you get destroyed. In which case none of the great things you did before you got destroyed matter.


jcb wrote: Wed Jun 18, 2025 6:53 pm My own experience with academics has also taught me that they are highly reluctant to fight back, partly because they are afraid, of course, but also because they honestly don't think that they need to. They think that their own brilliance will win out, regardless of the economic laws of the system! They truly believe that the system serves them, even if they remain a lowly-paid lecturer for years/decades.
Here in France, academics are usually left to far-left. Is it different in the US?
I can't read jcb's mind, but I have read a lot of their posts, and based on that, I think they might respond that people who are left or far-left by the standards of the academic world are not really left or far-left by their own standards.
Ares Land
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by Ares Land »

Raphael wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 4:08 am That's actually not an easy solution at all, because, if other people get into an arms race, and you decide that this can be easily solved by staying out of it, chances are that you get destroyed. In which case none of the great things you did before you got destroyed matter.
This may be answered in two ways.
First, from an ethical standpoint: why refrain from doing the right thing, and instead engage on an immensely dangerous course (nuclear proliferation, environmental damage) because of a possible military attack - which is entirely hypothetical.

From a more pragmatic standpoint: it doesn't even work. The USSR ruined itself trying to keep up with the US and Russia. (Not to mention the Soviet arsenal and military know-how is the very reason Ukraine is in the position it is now.)
The US won the Cold War, though, didn't they? Yes, but the first attack on US soil since Pearl Harbor was mounted by a terrorist group with far inferior capabilities.

I don't know what to think of the Zapatistas - but they do manage to control the Zapatista territories with little resources.
Travis B.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by Travis B. »

Raphael wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 4:08 am
Ares Land wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 3:50 am
jcb wrote: Wed Jun 18, 2025 6:53 pm My own experience with academics has also taught me that they are highly reluctant to fight back, partly because they are afraid, of course, but also because they honestly don't think that they need to. They think that their own brilliance will win out, regardless of the economic laws of the system! They truly believe that the system serves them, even if they remain a lowly-paid lecturer for years/decades.
Here in France, academics are usually left to far-left. Is it different in the US?
I can't read jcb's mind, but I have read a lot of their posts, and based on that, I think they might respond that people who are left or far-left by the standards of the academic world are not really left or far-left by their own standards.
jcb seems to be a traditional industrial working class, in the US sense of 'working class' not the socialist sense, chauvinist. For starters, academics even here in the US tend to be, on average, more left-wing than the general population, yet jcb views them as really being on the side of the capitalists. And if jcb views them as right-wing, then the general population is on average even more right-wing in that view if they are consistent. And jcb wants to relegate educated professionals in general to being enemies of the people, rather than as being people that, if some effort is put into it, can be convinced that their interests are the same as those of other workers.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by jcb »

Ares Land wrote:Here in France, academics are usually left to far-left. Is it different in the US?
Some are, but many take the typical liberal position of neglecting to have any kind of material analysis, and think that more education/accreditation is the solution to everything! And in the STEM/business fields, there's plenty that are just straight up technology/wealth worshippers who love to kiss the shoes of Bezos, Musk, and other oligarchs.
Raphael wrote:I can't read jcb's mind, but I have read a lot of their posts, and based on that, I think they might respond that people who are left or far-left by the standards of the academic world are not really left or far-left by their own standards.
Yes. Here's an article where Thomas Frank explains the inherent problem with trying to appeal to highly educated/accredited professionals as the (real) left (Emphasis is mine.):
https://inthesetimes.com/article/listen-liberal-thomas-frank-democratic-party-elites-inequality wrote: That was an essential point that I try to make in Listen Liberal: that there is no solidarity in a meritocracy. A meritocracy really is every man for himself.

Don’t get me wrong. People at the top of the meritocracy, professionals, obviously have enormous respect for one another. That is the nature of professional meritocracy. They have enormous respect for the people at the top, but they feel very little solidarity for people beneath them who don’t rise in the meritocracy.

Look at the white-collar workplace. If some professional gets fired, the other professionals don’t rally around and go on strike or protest or something like that. They just don’t do that. They feel no solidarity because everything goes back to you and whether or not you’ve made the grade. If somebody gets fired, they must’ve deserved it somehow.

I have my own personal experience. Look at academia over the last 20 years. They’re cranking out these Ph.D.s in the humanities who can’t get jobs on tenure track and instead have to work as adjuncts for very low pay, no benefits. One of the fascinating parts about this is that, with a few exceptions, the people who do have tenure-track jobs and are at the top of their fields, do very little about what’s happened to their colleagues who work as adjuncts. Essentially this is the Uberizing of higher education. The professionals who are in a position of authority have done almost nothing about it. There are academics here and there who feel bad about what’s happened to adjuncts and do say things about it, but by and large, overall, there is no solidarity in that meritocracy. They just don’t care.
The past generation of Democrats in America has been one grand experiment in trying to do what Frank calls "Liberalism Minus Labor" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS2hhJbC0mM ), and it's been a disaster. As long as Democrats continue to center their party around white-collar professionals instead of blue-collar workers, the enshittification of America will continue.

A Prediction: The Dems will probably win in 2028 (assuming that Trump's next attempted coup fails), they'll rule for 4-8 years, and accomplish and improve very little, if they bother to stop the enshittification at all. Then the Repubs will win again and the ruination will continue at full force. Housing and healthcare will become even more unaffordable, but at least the next time the police outrageously beat or murder a Black man that causes mass protests, the group of officers involved will be of many different races, and one might even be female or gay!
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Raphael
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by Raphael »

jcb, you generally make some good points, but at the same, treating people who have, for all their inability to get certain things, still been consistently anti-fascist over the last few years, as the enemy, while, at the same time, telling actual fascists "We love you and we want you to to join us", doesn't sound like such a good idea to me, either.
jcb wrote: Fri Jun 20, 2025 10:20 pm Housing and healthcare will become even more unaffordable, but at least the next time the police outrageously beat or murder a Black man that causes mass protests, the group of officers involved will be of many different races, and one might even be female or gay!
You're the one who's in favor of doing more to reach out to the people who, in that kind of situation, cheer on the officers.
Travis B.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by Travis B. »

Raphael wrote: Sat Jun 21, 2025 3:25 am jcb, you generally make some good points, but at the same, treating people who have, for all their inability to get certain things, still been consistently anti-fascist over the last few years, as the enemy, while, at the same time, telling actual fascists "We love you and we want you to to join us", doesn't sound like such a good idea to me, either.
jcb wrote: Fri Jun 20, 2025 10:20 pm Housing and healthcare will become even more unaffordable, but at least the next time the police outrageously beat or murder a Black man that causes mass protests, the group of officers involved will be of many different races, and one might even be female or gay!
You're the one who's in favor of doing more to reach out to the people who, in that kind of situation, cheer on the officers.
Agreed.

I wonder what jcb has to say about the fact that the people trying to do something about the genocide in Gaza, even at significant risk to themselves, are mostly the educated people that he calls enemies, while I have heard nothing about it from his traditional blue-collar friends.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by malloc »

Travis B. wrote: Sat Jun 21, 2025 10:41 ammalloc, your attitude towards the real threat, the fascists, smacks of defeatism while you simultaneously overstate the threat from AI. If we all had your view we would just let Trump et al have their way while spending all our time and energy fighting what is in many way a hypothetical threat.
[Originally posted in the AI thread, but since it concerns politics, I am responding here] Fair enough, but what exactly are our plans for dealing with all the overwhelming advantages the reactionaries currently enjoy? How do we plan on pulling generation Z away from the right or countering all the media platforms that support Trump or at least fail to air criticisms of his policies?
I wonder what jcb has to say about the fact that the people trying to do something about the genocide in Gaza, even at significant risk to themselves, are mostly the educated people that he calls enemies, while I have heard nothing about it from his traditional blue-collar friends.
Quite. One can certainly criticize the establishment liberals for their handling of working class issues, but we must also acknowledge practical realities. Currently at least, educated people are the ones trending left so it makes sense that left wing movements and organizations would lean on them.
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Raphael
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by Raphael »

Travis B. wrote: Sat Jun 21, 2025 9:42 am
Agreed.

I wonder what jcb has to say about the fact that the people trying to do something about the genocide in Gaza, even at significant risk to themselves, are mostly the educated people that he calls enemies, while I have heard nothing about it from his traditional blue-collar friends.
For the record, I agree about 60 percent to 70 percent with jcb. When I criticize jcb, it's because of the remaining 30 to 40 percent.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

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Raphael wrote: Sat Jun 21, 2025 11:54 am
Travis B. wrote: Sat Jun 21, 2025 9:42 am
Agreed.

I wonder what jcb has to say about the fact that the people trying to do something about the genocide in Gaza, even at significant risk to themselves, are mostly the educated people that he calls enemies, while I have heard nothing about it from his traditional blue-collar friends.
For the record, I agree about 60 percent to 70 percent with jcb. When I criticize jcb, it's because of the remaining 30 to 40 percent.
My problem with jcb is that he deprecates educated people as class enemies even when they are left-wing while either turning a blind eye to the many blue-collar people who are not left-wing at all or explaining away right-wing blue collar people as being educated people's fault.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by keenir »

malloc wrote: Sat Jun 21, 2025 11:21 am
Travis B. wrote: Sat Jun 21, 2025 10:41 ammalloc, your attitude towards the real threat, the fascists, smacks of defeatism while you simultaneously overstate the threat from AI. If we all had your view we would just let Trump et al have their way while spending all our time and energy fighting what is in many way a hypothetical threat.
[Originally posted in the AI thread, but since it concerns politics, I am responding here] Fair enough, but what exactly are our plans for dealing with all the overwhelming advantages the reactionaries currently enjoy?
hubris may not be deadly these days, but it sure stings.
How do we plan on pulling generation Z away from the right
I may be confusing Gen Z with another Generation, but aren't pretty much all the Generations' members who supported Trump, presently getting their fingers burned?
or countering all the media platforms that support Trump or at least fail to air criticisms of his policies?
fail to air criticisms? I think even Fox News is pointing out at least shortcomings.
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Raphael
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by Raphael »

Travis B. wrote: Sat Jun 21, 2025 12:09 pm
My problem with jcb is that he deprecates educated people as class enemies even when they are left-wing while either turning a blind eye to the many blue-collar people who are not left-wing at all or explaining away right-wing blue collar people as being educated people's fault.
I don't like jcb's apologetics for working class bigoted fascists, either, but I can kind of understand their anger at graduates. Graduates might see themselves as left-wing or left-liberal, but all too often, they're just left-wing in the sense of supporting whatever causes are fashionable in academic subcultures at any given moment, as long as those causes don't inconvenience the rich too much. And among the more centrist members of the graduate class, there's often been universal agreement on things that ended up hurting the working class a lot, and even eventually hurting large parts of the graduate class itself.

I'm currently reading one of the books that jcb indirectly recommended; I might have more thoughts once I've finished that book.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by Travis B. »

According to Wikipedia 35% of the adult population of the US had a bachelor's degree as of 2018. My own highest level of education is a bachelor's degree. If I am one of jcb's enemies of the people as an educated person, so are roughly 35% of the US population. Okay, if he means educated professionals, as I am a decently-paid professional programmer (or software engineer if one wants to emphasize highfalutin job titles), that might exclude part of that 35% from consideration. But still, that's an awfully large percentage of the population to denounce as class enemies. Of course, the Khmer Rouge had similar thoughts.
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Raphael
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by Raphael »

Repeating myself:

Raphael wrote: Sat Jun 21, 2025 2:34 pm

I'm currently reading one of the books that jcb indirectly recommended; I might have more thoughts once I've finished that book.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by Raphael »

Over the weekend, I read Thomas Frank's Listen, Liberal or, what ever happened to the party of the people?, based on a kind of "indirect recommendation" by jcb, partly to understand jcb's thoughts better.

I don't agree with everything Frank writes, but he makes some very good points. Basically, he's saying that there are a lot of bad, self-centered attitudes among what he calls the "professional class", and that that's bad because the "professional class" has been basically running the Democratic Party in the USA since the 1970s.

The simplified version of this that jcb seems to believe in is that the Democrats betrayed the working class during the Clinton years, and as a result, the working class turned against the Democrats. Now, that simplified version is easy to refute, by simply writing something like

1968 Large parts of the working class turn against the Democrats. The Republican nominee wins.

1972 Large parts of the working class turn against the Democrats. The Republican nominee wins in a landslide.

1980 Large parts of the working class turn against the Democrats. The Republican nominee wins in a landslide.

1984 Large parts of the working class turn against the Democrats. The Republican nominee wins in a landslide.

1988 Large parts of the working class turn against the Democrats. The Republican nominee wins in a landslide.

1992 The Democrats nominate Bill Clinton for President.

The 2020s ZBB member jcb posts a lot about how the working class turned against the Democrats because of what Bill Clinton did as President.

But Thomas Frank gets around that objection by arguing that the Democrats already turned against organized labor in the 1970s, specifically, during the work of the McGovern Commission to reform the nominating- and convention process. What Frank doesn’t like about that commission’s work is that they tried to ensure fair representation for all kinds of different demographic groups, but not for blue collar workers.

So according to Frank, most of the internal fighting among Democrats in the 1970s, 1980s, and early 1990s was just between different wings of the “professional class”, who had their differences but were united in their common rejection of old-school union activism and New-Deal-ism.

Frank traces this back to one of the people who worked on the McGovern Commission, a certain Frederick Dutton, who wrote a book called Changing Sources of Power, which Frank calls “The Powell Memo of the Democrats”. To quote Frank:

Dutton’s argument was simple: America having become a land of universal and soaring affluence, all that traditional Democratic stuff about forgotten men and workers’ rights was now as relevant as a stack of Victrola discs. And young people, meaning white, upper-middle-class college kids—oh, these young people were so wise and so virtuous and even so holy that when contemplating them Dutton could scarcely restrain himself. They were “aristocrats—en masse,” the Democratic grandee wrote (quoting Paul Goodman); they meant to “rescue the individual from a mass society,” to “recover the human condition from technological domination,” to “refurbish and reinvigorate individuality.” Better: the young were so noble and so enlightened that they had basically transcended the realm of the physical. “They define the good life not in terms of material thresholds or ‘index economics,’ as the New Deal, Great Society, and most economic conservatives have done,” Dutton marveled, “but as ‘the fulfilled life’ in a more intangible and personal sense.”

Yes, the young were beyond the reach of economics, and seen from the vantage point of 1971, the Great Depression—the period that formed the identity of the Democratic Party—was a far-off country suffering from incomprehensible troubles.
And, according to Frank, ever since, the Democrats cared more about the people Dutton praised, or at least older versions of the people Dutton praised, than about the actually disadvantaged people they should have cared about.

But what, exactly, is Frank’s problem with the “professional class”?

Basically, that they don’t really care that much, or are even really aware of, people outside their own class. If they’re, by their own standards, well-meaning, they really want to help non-members of their class to become members of their class, but they don’t care about people who don’t eventually end up in their class.

They can be very left-wing in the sense that they want to do a lot to give every child a fair chance to grow up to be a member of their class – that’s where their pro-education and anti-discrimination stances come from – but they don’t care much about the well-being of those who don’t eventually join their class.

Frank traces this tendency through Bill Clinton, Obama, and Hillary Clinton (the book was published before Biden). For me personally, the sections on Obama were a kind of weird experience – I’ve spend so much time hearing from people who thought Obama was either great or good, or that he was a socialist Kenyan-born Muslim mole on a mission to turn the USA into an Islamostalinist dystopia, that reading a carefully researched, reasonable, fact-based, but still hard-hitting criticism of him feels kind of odd.

Some quotes from the book:

Dodd-Frank goes about reforming the banks by outlawing many of the specific practices that were implicated in the housing bubble and the financial crisis, thus generating the tens of thousands of pages of rules and exceptions that are the law’s most remarkable feature. At the same time, however, Dodd-Frank leaves the banks themselves standing, and it does little to alter the more fundamental conventions of modern banking—like ballooning compensation—that gave rise to the madness in the first place. As the regulatory expert Bill Black says, it is like trying to achieve gun safety by banning the specific caliber of ammunition that was used in the latest massacre. It won’t be difficult for the villains to find a different way to get what they want.

As it happens, the vast majority of Americans are unprofessional: they are the managed, not the managers. But people whose faith lies in “cream rising to the top” (to repeat Alter’s take on Obama’s credo) tend to disdain those at the bottom. Those who succeed, the doctrine of merit holds, are those who deserve to—who race to the top, who get accepted to “good” colleges and get graduate degrees in the right subjects. Those who don’t sort of deserve their fates.

“One of the challenges in our society is that the truth is kind of a disequalizer,” Larry Summers told journalist Ron Suskind during the early days of the Obama administration. “One of the reasons that inequality has probably gone up in our society is that people are being treated closer to the way that they’re supposed to be treated.”

Remember, as you let that last sentence slide slowly down your throat, that this was a Democrat saying this—a prominent Democrat, a high-ranking cabinet official in the Clinton years and the man standing at the right hand of power in the first Obama administration.

Innovation liberalism is “a liberalism of the rich,” to use the straightforward phrase of local labor leader Harris Gruman. This doctrine has no patience with the idea that everyone should share in society’s wealth. What Massachusetts liberals pine for, by and large, is a more perfect meritocracy—a system where everyone gets an equal chance and the truly talented get to rise. Once that requirement is satisfied—once diversity has been achieved and the brilliant people of all races and genders have been identified and credentialed—this species of liberal can’t really conceive of any further grievance against the system. The demands of ordinary working-class people, Gruman says, are unpersuasive to them: “Janitors, fast-food servers, home care or child care providers—most of whom are women and people of color—they don’t have college degrees.” And if you don’t have a college degree in Boston—brother, you’ve got no one to blame but yourself.

The CEO of a crowdworking company called CrowdFlower explains how the magic is done:

Before the Internet, it would be really difficult to find someone, sit them down for ten minutes and get them to work for you, and then fire them after those ten minutes. But with technology, you can actually find them, pay them the tiny amount of money, and then get rid of them when you don’t need them anymore.
By the way, the CEO who reportedly spoke those lines—a young gentleman named Lukas Biewald—is an Obama donor who, according to a post on the CrowdFlower blog, was asked in 2012 to help out with the Big Data part of the president’s reelection campaign.
One criticism I have of Frank’s book is that he’s way too dismissive of not directly economic issues. He seems to see them mostly as distractions. For instance, he almost only mentions race issues when they give him an opportunity to attack the Clintons from the Left. That ignores all those people on the receiving end of various forms of (systemic and personal) bigotry.

That said, on the whole, the book is great. If you’re seriously interested in grappling with jcb’s views, no matter whether you agree with those views or not, you should read this book, if you practically can.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by Travis B. »

I pretty much agree with the above, but I disagree with the idea that professional workers naturally have interests which conflict with those of non-professional workers. At the end of the day, professional workers' interests are actually the same as non-professional workers'. They still have to sell their labor to survive and can (at least in places like the US) be dismissed at a moment's notice once they are no longer needed by the capitalists. Rather than relegating professionals to being class enemies we should rather be trying to wake them up to this fact; the more liberal professionals indeed are probably easier to convince of this.
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Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by MacAnDàil »

Raphael wrote: Sat Jun 21, 2025 2:34 pm I don't like jcb's apologetics for working class bigoted fascists, either, but I can kind of understand their anger at graduates. Graduates might see themselves as left-wing or left-liberal, but all too often, they're just left-wing in the sense of supporting whatever causes are fashionable in academic subcultures at any given moment, as long as those causes don't inconvenience the rich too much. And among the more centrist members of the graduate class, there's often been universal agreement on things that ended up hurting the working class a lot, and even eventually hurting large parts of the graduate class itself.

I'm currently reading one of the books that jcb indirectly recommended; I might have more thoughts once I've finished that book.
That is not the case among those I know. To the contrary, many are among the few additions to the left-wing protest and political party circuit, that includes support for tax the rich and worker's councils type policies.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by Torco »

MacAnDàil wrote: Tue Jun 24, 2025 10:30 am
Raphael wrote: Sat Jun 21, 2025 2:34 pm I don't like jcb's apologetics for working class bigoted fascists, either, but I can kind of understand their anger at graduates. Graduates might see themselves as left-wing or left-liberal, but all too often, they're just left-wing in the sense of supporting whatever causes are fashionable in academic subcultures at any given moment, as long as those causes don't inconvenience the rich too much. And among the more centrist members of the graduate class, there's often been universal agreement on things that ended up hurting the working class a lot, and even eventually hurting large parts of the graduate class itself.

I'm currently reading one of the books that jcb indirectly recommended; I might have more thoughts once I've finished that book.
That is not the case among those I know. To the contrary, many are among the few additions to the left-wing protest and political party circuit, that includes support for tax the rich and worker's councils type policies.
it greatly varies. universities are and have always been hotbeds of marxism, anarchism and other genuinely transformative ideas, but they're also hotbeds of rich sons-of-money who, to say it metaphorically, demand the concentration camps be run by a female ceo
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by Travis B. »

MacAnDàil wrote: Tue Jun 24, 2025 10:30 am
Raphael wrote: Sat Jun 21, 2025 2:34 pm I don't like jcb's apologetics for working class bigoted fascists, either, but I can kind of understand their anger at graduates. Graduates might see themselves as left-wing or left-liberal, but all too often, they're just left-wing in the sense of supporting whatever causes are fashionable in academic subcultures at any given moment, as long as those causes don't inconvenience the rich too much. And among the more centrist members of the graduate class, there's often been universal agreement on things that ended up hurting the working class a lot, and even eventually hurting large parts of the graduate class itself.

I'm currently reading one of the books that jcb indirectly recommended; I might have more thoughts once I've finished that book.
That is not the case among those I know. To the contrary, many are among the few additions to the left-wing protest and political party circuit, that includes support for tax the rich and worker's councils type policies.
As you probably guessed, I disagree with dismissing left-wing educated people's positions as merely 'fashionable' myself, while simultaneously looking for friends amongst non-left-wing blue-collar people. This is essentially blue-collar chauvinism, the idea that left-wing blue-collar people are more authentic, more real in their beliefs and positions while left-wing educated people's positions are mere 'champagne socialism', while right-wing blue-collar people are would-be left-wing people were it not for those dastardly left-liberal educated people who have betrayed the traditional blue-collar working class.
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Raphael
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by Raphael »

Torco wrote: Tue Jun 24, 2025 11:19 am
it greatly varies. universities are and have always been hotbeds of marxism, anarchism and other genuinely transformative ideas, but they're also hotbeds of rich sons-of-money who, to say it metaphorically, demand the concentration camps be run by a female ceo
Not to mention people who spend their student days cosplaying as the former, and slowly or quickly turn into the latter once they've graduated and started professional careers.

Travis B. wrote: Tue Jun 24, 2025 11:34 am
As you probably guessed, I disagree with dismissing left-wing educated people's positions as merely 'fashionable' myself, while simultaneously looking for friends amongst non-left-wing blue-collar people. This is essentially blue-collar chauvinism, the idea that left-wing blue-collar people are more authentic, more real in their beliefs and positions while left-wing educated people's positions are mere 'champagne socialism', while right-wing blue-collar people are would-be left-wing people were it not for those dastardly left-liberal educated people who have betrayed the traditional blue-collar working class.
I think in any case, it's not too much too ask that politicians and parties which claim to want to appeal to left-of-center voters should do something for blue-collar and service sector workers, and not just in the sense of giving them more opportunities to become white-collar workers - independently of whether this will convert any blue-collar or service sector workers to the cause.
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