Tinasan, Ineshîmé, and other fantasy-Japonic curiosities

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Rounin Ryuuji
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Tinasan, Ineshîmé, and other fantasy-Japonic curiosities

Post by Rounin Ryuuji »

Edit 2: Everything in this post, and in every post with the title "A Little Dabbling in Japonic" or a response to it, will be very out of date, but it's still here if (for whatever reason) you want to read through it.

EDIT: To have a quick and easy link-heap, the project documents are given below:

Sound changes from Proto-Japanese to Old Ifsume.
A basic wordlist.
Morphology of six-stem (equivalent to yodan) verbs; this bearing a great deal of resemblance to Old Japanese.
Coalescing the particles into nominals.

I've been gathering what resources I can find on Japonic linguistics for a project (a language for a work of fiction set in a world not our own; I'm simply not good at inventing roots and morphemes, and I find Japanese a very interesting and euphonous language), and have managed to gather the following sources:

Vowels
Verbs
Particles

For my own language, however, I find I desire to do the following: (1) have far fewer Sinitic borrowings; (2) produce native roots with initial voiced stops and /r/; (3) have present a phonemic /l/; (4) have such sequences as the frequent (C)yō, ō, (C)ya, ei &c. which appear chiefly in Sino-Japanese words, to occur naturally in the "modern" language that will resolve from the project, again without recourse to large-scale Sinitic borrowing; and (5) produce something of roughly equal euphonousness (to my ear) to modern Japanese, and complexity to Bungo, but to do so in such a way as very directly copies neither.
More: show
To this end, noting that Japanese has a pitch accent, and encountering no good explanation as to whence it emerged, I have taken it upon myself to assume that syllables that begin "high" probably once had voiceless or voiceless aspirated initials, and those that began "low" probably had voiced or voiced aspirated, the basis of this being a sound change in Thai (a historical voiced initial seems to lower the tone of the syllable overall); for aspiration, I have a much weaker evidential basis, chiefly wanting to include it to achieve a certain outcome, though it is a common areal feature, appearing in Old Chinese, and I believe older forms of Thai, and also Korean, though the former two have no clear genetic link with Japonic, and I remain rather sceptical of descriptions linking it with Koreanic.

The /l/ phoneme is rather easy to arrive at: there are alternations of y-/r- in a few morphemes (notably the imperative suffix -ro/-yo), and I have heard it proposed that some phone that was probably something like *[l~lʲ~ʎ] may have existed. This, for purposes of this project, I have accepted as likely, largely as an excuse to change initial y- to l- as I like (this will also serve to be useful in reducing homophony). I also want an initial r-; this, for now, I simply insert by supposing that some initial n- were once r- (the shift /r/ > /n/ has recently happened in South Korea, if I understand correctly).
Delving further into the matter, I feel I cannot ignore Francis-Ratte's assertions about the potential existence of Proto-Koreano-Japonic, and so will prefer to arrive at some of these by other means, including simply reversing the reason for the voicing (that meaning a low pitch, or the thing that most usually ends up being one in modern-day Tokyo, my sources on ancient pitch accents being rather lacking) conditioning voicing, and not the other way round, as well as /n/ > /r/ and /j/ > /l/ being conditioned sound changes. Analogical formation will also be a very dear friend in the coming developments, I believe.

As far as the desired imperative -/l/- form goes, I imagine it could be obtained from the */ju/ auxiliary used as a separate word, while where it fuses onto the word, it remains */ju/, leaving me with the -yu conjugation, which I desire to preserve.

In the interest of not having a very long post, I shall leave the current sound changes from Proto-Japanese here. Isn't that a rather cute font, too? I like it quite a lot — I found it going through the list of Japanese ones I had. I normally use Yu Mincho, but this one made me smile.

I do also very much like how Frellesvig reconstructs a vowel system that includes all of /i ɨ e ə u a o/, and will find such a reconstruction very useful to my ends.
More: show
The resulting protolanguage would look something like this phonologically:

Nasal: /m n/
Stop: /p pʰ b bʰ t tʰ d dʰ k kʰ g gʰ/
Fricative: /s z/
Affricate: /ts dz/
Resonant: /r l j w/

Vowel: /i e ɘ a o ɤ u/

The distinction between /s z/ and /ts dz/ is based on the positioning of s-/z- in the gojūon; the sounds /s/ and /z/ being very common, I think it unlikely (though not impossible, Cf. Hawai'ian) that there would be no /s/ phoneme.

It would be easy to derive Japanese from this, first merge the aspirates with their non-aspirated counterparts without trace, then merged voice and voiceless stops and sibilants with the pitch change described above, then merge /s/ and /ts/, resulting in /s~ts/ in free variation, and lastly merge /l/ with either /r/ or /j/ dialectally, shift initial /r/ > /n/, and change /ɘ ɤ/ to Frellesvig's /ɨ ə/.

This also has little evidential basis — it was probably characteristic of Proto-Indo-European, but that being connected very nearly with Japonic would be a flight of fantasy more wild than I should like to take — but I shall also presume that /t(ʰ) d(ʰ) ts dz n/, sometimes /l/, and also initial /r/ were dental [t̪(ʰ) d̪(ʰ) t̪͡s̪ d̪͡z̪ n̺ l̪ ɾ̪], but also that [l̪~ʎ] are in free variation, and that medial /r/ is retroflex [ɽ]; /s z/, however, are apical [s̺ z̺].

This protolanguage is still, however, very far from where I want to begin, which is with the following changes:

(1) All aspirated stops become fricatives [pʰ bʰ t̪ʰ d̪ʰ kʰ gʰ] > [ɸ β θ~s̪ ð~z̪ x ɣ]; further, by the time we have anything attested, the aspirated dental stops have fully become dental sibilant fricatives [s̪ z̪] and [x ɣ] have merged to a single [x~h~ç] phoneme.
(2) As in Japonic, sequences of /np nt nk/ > /b d g/, however these usually show no traces of prenasalisation, this often results from the connecting infix -n-.
(3) This infix also frequently appears when words in m- or n- are infixed; the result is somewhat unstable, nasalising the preceding vowel, but also appearing to simultaneously geminate the nasal consonant, such that we have syllables of /Ṽmm/ and /Ṽnn/; by the time we have anything attested, the first will tend to have uvularised to [ɴ], and will frequently be deleted, sometimes with compensatory lengthening. Analogically, some words with a morpheme-medial nasal will undergo a spontaneous mutation, notably *ama (sky, hevens) > *amma~*anma.
(4) All rounded vowels tend to show compressed and endolabial rounding.
(I'm rather sorry to see some of this go, but we still arrive at very nearly the same result.)

So the first stage of the language would look rather like this:

Nasal: /m n (ɴ)/ m n n
Stop: /p t k b d g/ p t k b d g
Affricate: /ts dz/ ts dz
Fricative: /f v s̪ z̪ s̺ z̺ h/ f v s z s z h
Resonant: /l r w j/ l r w y
Vowel: /i e ɘ a o ɤ u/ i e ĕ a o ŏ u

A pitch accent will begin to emerge during this period, generally with words of two morae or less having a "flat" pitch very regularly (though the vowels /ɘ ɤ/ will frequently trigger a drop in pitch morpheme-internally); a few random examples from the Swadesh list, showing a few other sound changes in places: link to a more thorough document.

It is, admittedly, not as tidy as I might like, but it may be at least interesting, I hope.
More: show
1. (I, me) - "wuore" (breaking /a/ > /uo/ after /w/ is sporadic), "wuo-" (bound), but "waga" (-a blocks a-breaking); also "inmĕnĕ, inmĕ-" (from "i-n-mĕnĕ" — "this person"; "inmĕ-" is a back-formation; polite, boyish)
2. (thou, thee, you, ye) - "nare, naga, na-" (all rare), "nagatare, nagata-" (old-fashioned, "vous"-like), "tabe" (hand-direction, cf. Nih. "temae", but not considered rude), "tĕbe" (coloured by "inmĕ-" or "sĕ-"?), "sĕbe", "sĕgata(re)" ("that way"), "sĕnmĕnĕ", "sĕnmĕ" (from "sĕ-n-mĕnĕ", that person, jocular, boyish, probably analogical from inmĕnĕ rather than an independent formation)
3. (we, us) - "wara" (from "wuo-/wa-"), "wuorera, warera, warara" (showing various dialectal vowel patterning), "inmĕnĕra, inmĕra" (plurals of "inmĕnɘ, inmĕ-"), "ifŏre, ifŏrera, ifŏra" (exclusive when speaking to one outside one's group, inclusive to one within; from "ifŏ", — "house, family, residence, dwelling", cf. Nih. "io", Classical "ifo~iwo")
4. (this) - "i" (postnominal definite article, frequently absorbed into the preceding word), "i" (bound form, inflections "iga", "iwo" &c.) "ire" (freestanding pronominal), "inŏ" (determiner)
5. (that) - "sĕ, sĕre, sĕnŏ/kĕ, kĕre, kĕno" (mesial), "a, are, anŏ/ka, kare, kanŏ" (distal)
6. (who?) - "ta, tare, tanŏ, tani" (both "who?" and "one who, one which"); "tatŏri, tadŏri" (one who, one which); "enmĕ(nĕ)" (formation from "inmĕ(nĕ), sĕnmĕ(nĕ), chiefly facetious or boyish)
7. (what?) - "e, ere, enŏ, eni" (what? what is?), "etu, eture, etura, etenŏ, eteni" (which, which one?); note absent *na~nan~nani
8. (not) - "ina-" (un-, in-, non-; also "no"); "iya~iye" (no, not at all); "-zŏw~-zu" (negative conjugation of verbs); note absent *nŏw~*nu
9. (all) - "sume, sunme, sube"
10. (many) - "ĕbŏra(nŏ)"
11. (one) - "fito"
12. (two) - "futa"
13. (big) - "sinkaki, sinka, sin"
14. (long) - "taka, takaki, takasi"
15. (small) - "tinbi~tinmi"
16. (woman) - [not attested]
17. (man) - "tomo", "omo" (aphetic?); "wo, wowo, owo" (uncommon)
18. (person) - "pitŏ", "tŏtŏri" (< "pitŏtŏri"); "-tori, -dori"
19. (fish) - "uwo"
20. (bird) - "tsage" (cf. archaic Nih. "sake", "ural owl"), "sorazori", "sozori" (< "soratori~soradori" < - "sky-person", with second -t- assimilated to -s- (?); poetic or literary), "daka" (large),
21. (dog) - "innu", "inu"
22. (louse) - [not attested]
23. (tree) - "siba" (usually the standalone word), "kĕ" (frequent in tree names)
24. (seed) - "samu", "isamu", "issamu" (cf. "sa-" in Nih. "saku, saki", "-sa" in Nih. "kusa", + "mi, mu"); elsewhere "isa" means "flower"
25. (leaf) - "fa", "ifa"
26. (root) - "re" (cf. Nih. "ne")
27. (bark - tree) - "kĕge" (< "kegabe", cf Nih. "kabe" - "birch"; here also "gabekĕ" > "gage" - "birch")
28. (skin) - "gafŏ, gapŏ" (cf. Nih. "kao")
29. (flesh) - "tsudi" ("meat, body mass"), "mu" ("body"), "suyŏ" ("muscle", cf. Nih. "tsuyoi"), "nanma" ("flesh, body, living tissue"), "ume" ("living thing"), "hinme" ("bugly muscle, strong muscle")
30. (blood) - "sawozi", "zi" (Nih. "chi"), "namazi"
31. (bone) - "bone" (amusing, eh?)
32. (grease, fat) - "anmu(ra)"
33. (egg) - "sida(na)" (< "siradama" - "white ball, white gem"?)
34. (horn) - "suno"
35. (tail) - "siri", "wosiri"
36. (feather" - "sofa" (< "sorafa" - "sky-leaf" (?), "so-" (bound form appearing in "sora"?) + "fa" ("leaf")?)
37. (hair) - "vige(ra)" (cf. Nih. "hige" - "whiskers")
38. (head) - "gasi" (cf. Nih. "kashira")
39. (ear) - "ginmĕ, ginme" (< "gikumĕ", "hearing-eye"), "mimĕ" (cf. Nih. "mimi")
40. (eye) - "mŏ, mĕ"; sight "mĕy, mi"
41. (nose) - "bana"
42. (mouth) - "doke" ("gutu ake" - "mouth opening, mouth-hole" > "gudoke" > "doke" ?)
43. (tooth) - "pa" (distinct from "fa", apparently), "kipa" ("ki pa" - "edged tooth" > "incisor" > "tooth"), "kiba" (ki-n-pa, showing nasal infixation)
44. (tongue) - "zita" (anatomical); "ifu" ("language")
45. (claw) - "tuma"
46. (foot) - "arĕ"
47. (knee) - "siŏrĕ" (< "asi ŏrĕ" - "leg bend"?)
48. (hand) - "ta, tay~te"
49. (belly) - "zigala" ("lower trunk, lower torso"), bara (rare, "belly, stomach area"), "zimomu" ("belly, underbelly, stomach area")
50. (neck) - "yeri, eri" (neck, trapezius muscle), "tagumi, dakumi, dami, daki" (< "ata gumi"?)
Still very much a rough draught, and not very much "native" orthography yet, but perhaps those who have more knowledge of Japonic linguistics than I do (or who simply like the idea) might care to comment? It would be much appreciated.
Last edited by Rounin Ryuuji on Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:18 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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linguistcat
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic

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This is interesting to me. I'm working on a project that has some similar design principles, some very different or even opposite design principles, starting from basically the same reconstructions, but for different reasons. So I'd love to see where this goes and it looks like you're already putting a bit of work into it to figure things out.
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic

Post by Rounin Ryuuji »

Ah, is yours also Japonic, or simply a similar reconstruction of some other family?
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic

Post by Moose-tache »

I love, love, LOVE heavily-researched a posteriori conlangs that are well-integrated into a real world context!

It sounds like your language is splitting off before the Ryukyuan split. Will you be using Ryukyuan for inspiration at all, or are you mostly interested in mainland Japanese?

I like the idea of getting a similar aesthetic to modern Japanese without the Sinitic influence. It should be easy enough to get there through areal influence or just coincidence (i.e. a lot of /o:/ in Japanese comes from consonant elision that would be easy to replicate). Some of these goals (native voicing, distinct laterals, etc.) are common in northeast Asia, so you could always put your speakers in the far north of the Sea of Japan and give them more Tungusic connections than Sinitic ones. Or not. I like where this is going no matter what.
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Rounin Ryuuji
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic

Post by Rounin Ryuuji »

Moose-tache wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:57 pmI love, love, LOVE heavily-researched a posteriori conlangs that are well-integrated into a real world context!
I feel rather bad that this begins with a note that it's for a world not our own now. The heavy research is a labour of love, however, so it would, I suppose, be a language that could plausibly exist, even if there is no intended alternate history.
Moose-tache wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:57 pmIt sounds like your language is splitting off before the Ryukyuan split. Will you be using Ryukyuan for inspiration at all, or are you mostly interested in mainland Japanese?
Some of the sound changes to come will parallel Ryūkyūan, notably /k g/ palatalise to [c͡ɕ ɟ͡ʑ], but the dental realisation of /t d/ prevents the dentals and velars from merging in palatalising environments. The rest of the sound changes are more-or-less worked out already.
Moose-tache wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:57 pmI like the idea of getting a similar aesthetic to modern Japanese without the Sinitic influence.
Thank you.
Moose-tache wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:57 pmIt should be easy enough to get there through areal influence or just coincidence (i.e. a lot of /o:/ in Japanese comes from consonant elision that would be easy to replicate). Some of these goals (native voicing, distinct laterals, etc.) are common in northeast Asia, so you could always put your speakers in the far north of the Sea of Japan and give them more Tungusic connections than Sinitic ones. Or not. I like where this is going no matter what.
I hadn't considered Tungusic, but it's a useful suggestion, so thanks. The few non-native words I have are mostly Indo-European (from the earlier stages of the language being pasiha - "nectarine, a kind of peach or plum imported from Persia (whence the name)", meli - "honey" (Sinitic seems to have borrowed an Indo-European word, too); also "arisyan" - "lion" (a Turkic loanword; the -syan even gets abstracted off the word, and attached to other animal names to create something meaning roughly "huge fantastical creature resembling [whatever]" so you end up with "Torasyan" (a given name) and "inusyan" (a kind of large dog-like creature; stone lion, lion-dog, but literally "dogbeast"), &c.).
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic

Post by Ketsuban »

Would you like some data from the other end? I have a PDF of Alexander Francis-Ratte's dissertation reconstructing a common ancestor of Korean and Japonic. I found it in a pile of resources labelled "Altaic", but it has actual academic standards rather than posturing and explaining away inconvenient truths as "folk etymology".
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:41 pm The /l/ phoneme is rather easy to arrive at: there are alternations of y-/r- in a few morphemes (notably the imperative suffix -ro/-yo), and I have heard it proposed that some phone that was probably something like *[l~lʲ~ʎ] may have existed.
Francis-Ratte explains the variation as an original *-rə; when affixed to a consonant-final verb stem it formed an invalid consonant cluster (e.g. *kak- "write" + *-rə => **kakrə) which was resolved by shifting the affix consonant to the permissible *-jə. (Their Proto-Korean-Japonic reconstruction includes a correspondence between *j in Proto-Japonic and *-r(ə)r- in Proto-Korean reconstructed as *rr, and presents the additional evidence of the Korean name 安羅 Anla / Alla being adapted as Aya as evidence that *r/*j alternation was not atypical of Japonic in general.) Western Old Japanese then altered the imperative form of vowel-stem verbs by analogy.
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic

Post by Rounin Ryuuji »

Ketsuban wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:53 am Would you like some data from the other end? I have a PDF of Alexander Francis-Ratte's dissertation reconstructing a common ancestor of Korean and Japonic. I found it in a pile of resources labelled "Altaic", but it has actual academic standards rather than posturing and explaining away inconvenient truths as "folk etymology".
Yes, I would like that very much, if you would be so good as to share.
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:41 pm The /l/ phoneme is rather easy to arrive at: there are alternations of y-/r- in a few morphemes (notably the imperative suffix -ro/-yo), and I have heard it proposed that some phone that was probably something like *[l~lʲ~ʎ] may have existed.
Ketsuban wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:53 am Francis-Ratte explains the variation as an original *-rə; when affixed to a consonant-final verb stem it formed an invalid consonant cluster (e.g. *kak- "write" + *-rə => **kakrə) which was resolved by shifting the affix consonant to the permissible *-jə. (Their Proto-Korean-Japonic reconstruction includes a correspondence between *j in Proto-Japonic and *-r(ə)r- in Proto-Korean reconstructed as *rr, and presents the additional evidence of the Korean name 安羅 Anla / Alla being adapted as Aya as evidence that *r/*j alternation was not atypical of Japonic in general.) Western Old Japanese then altered the imperative form of vowel-stem verbs by analogy.
This is good to know (and also explains why some Old Japanese verbs do have an imperative in -ye, but others use this -yo/-ro particle. Does the same process also, to your knowledge, explain the r/j alternation in the Old Japanese passive (Frellesvig gives it as -(a)yu~-(a)ru, apparently thence deriving a shimo nidan verb? If not, I may need another source for my /l/.

On this note, Frellesvig does, if memory serve, suspect that the nominaliser -i/-j might have also been the result of a terminal -r, but as we do seem to see an archaic particle -i (also -ipa/-ifa as a sort-of emphatic nominal or topical marker), I'm inclined to think this specific -i was the result of some sort of particle absorption.
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic

Post by Ketsuban »

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:43 am
Ketsuban wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:53 am Would you like some data from the other end? I have a PDF of Alexander Francis-Ratte's dissertation reconstructing a common ancestor of Korean and Japonic. I found it in a pile of resources labelled "Altaic", but it has actual academic standards rather than posturing and explaining away inconvenient truths as "folk etymology".
Yes, I would like that very much, if you would be so good as to share.
Done.
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:43 am This is good to know (and also explains why some Old Japanese verbs do have an imperative in -ye, but others use this -yo/-ro particle. Does the same process also, to your knowledge, explain the r/j alternation in the Old Japanese passive (Frellesvig gives it as -(a)yu~-(a)ru, apparently thence deriving a shimo nidan verb? If not, I may need another source for my /l/.
I have no knowledge on this matter, and my limited resources don't mention it.
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:43 am On this note, Frellesvig does, if memory serve, suspect that the nominaliser -i/-j might have also been the result of a terminal -r, but as we do seem to see an archaic particle -i (also -ipa/-ifa as a sort-of emphatic nominal or topical marker), I'm inclined to think this specific -i was the result of some sort of particle absorption.
Francis-Ratte agrees with you - see section 4.2.9 of the dissertation.
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic

Post by Rounin Ryuuji »

Ketsuban wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:39 amDone.
I must derive a word to thank you for this. I know — 其方美的有芭 (Segáta Mishâri - literally "you are a marvel").
Ketsuban wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:39 am
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:43 am This is good to know (and also explains why some Old Japanese verbs do have an imperative in -ye, but others use this -yo/-ro particle. Does the same process also, to your knowledge, explain the r/j alternation in the Old Japanese passive (Frellesvig gives it as -(a)yu~-(a)ru, apparently thence deriving a shimo nidan verb? If not, I may need another source for my /l/.
I have no knowledge on this matter, and my limited resources don't mention it.
Perhaps an answer may reveal itself with time.
Ketsuban wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:39 am
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:43 am On this note, Frellesvig does, if memory serve, suspect that the nominaliser -i/-j might have also been the result of a terminal -r, but as we do seem to see an archaic particle -i (also -ipa/-ifa as a sort-of emphatic nominal or topical marker), I'm inclined to think this specific -i was the result of some sort of particle absorption.
Francis-Ratte agrees with you - see section 4.2.9 of the dissertation.
This will certainly be an interesting read, though it's so long I imagine it's going to be some time before what I post here may feel its effects.
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic

Post by Rounin Ryuuji »

To begin, some contextual details, or at least as many as I feel as I can provide in something part of a rapidly evolving work of fiction: the language I've described so far had, to the knowledge of the characters of the narrative present of the story, no consistent internal name, being initially called simply 語 ("ifu" [i.ɸʉᵝ], protoform *ipʰu, cognate to Japanase 言う), which literally means "language", and, after some dialectal divergence, by several words by which names languages in the narrative present are called. The largest centre of population in "ancient times" having been a place the group of moderns speaking the desired resultant language being called the 陽之葵大江 (Ifsumé Shin'ye - "Sunflower Great Bay" or "Great Bay of Sunflowers"), this most ancient form of their language they tend to call 古本的語 (otoreshe iyu, sometimes otoreshîyu in fast speech - "ancient language") or (古本的陽之葵語, otorêshe Ifsumé-iyu or Otoreshîfsumé); by transference from this, I tend to call the archaic form we have so far been discussing "Ancient Ifsumé" (earlier draughts, "Ancient Ifusume").

陽之葵大江 has the Ancient reading Ipisume sin ye; in modern times, the word for "sunflower" is 陽葵 (ifumé) or 日葵 (fumé), with 陽之葵 (ifsumé) usually being poetic or literary, or Ifsumé, a proper name.

The word 陽 ipi - "sun, solar disk" has the second element the same as Japanese hi, Old Japanese *pi, later fi, meaning "sun", while the first *i- is obscure. Such an initial also appears in words 華 (isa - "flower", the second element is probably the sa- in Nih. saki, saku, -sa in kusa) 葉 (ifa - "leaf"), and 葩 (inmé, which seems to descend from the same element 葵 (me - appears in the names of some flowers, also 寝葵 nĕnme, a kind of poppy); the initial element may be a form of 命 (ihi, protolanguage *igʰi), "living, alive, breathing; fresh, new, beautiful); this may have been done to distinguish between real plants and portrayals of them (this is culturally significant).

Yes, we do have some rather wild sound changes ahead (or so I like to think).
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic

Post by linguistcat »

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:03 pm Ah, is yours also Japonic, or simply a similar reconstruction of some other family?
It's Japonic but heavily influenced by pronunciations from Middle Chinese if not as many borrowings. And it's supposed to be spoken in a near alternate history of the real world (or irl if you believe youkai exist). It splits off in Early Heian, so much closer to modern times than your language would split off.

I'd like it to sound more "cat like" but also keep some of the prosody and general sound patterns of modern Japanese as well. So I'm keeping "voiced" consonants nasalized, trying to find a way to include more nasals and a long /r:/ while trying to push the pitch accent into an actual tone system.

I really like the aesthetics of what you have so far. It looks like a fun project.
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic

Post by fusijui »

This is great stuff, and I'm really happy to see it! My own long-standing project is of kind of similar in its aesthetic basis, maybe: a "Japonesish-feeling" language, but based on Tungusic sources. (The handwave being a survival of the alleged 'Misihase' invaders/settlers/visitors something something centuries of adstratal influence cough cough restructuring ummm...)

Throwing out some not-very-well-informed ideas:
* For initial voiced consonants, how about apocope of initial vowels after intervocalic voicing, of the sort *apa > *aba > ba ? That could be combined with your work with the pitch-accent system to limit how much territory it covers.
* For /l/, what about having it develop from /n/ (instead of n > r)? It's pretty commonly attested in the region (Tungusic, I mean) and I think generally. Again, you could limit how far it goes (and preserve some syllable-initial /n/) by saying that it's either caused by nasal dissimilation (*nama > lama) or is preserved by a nasal neighbor (*nama/ > nama but *napa > lapa), and so on.
* At least Tokyo-dialect macho-talk already has a trilled /r/, doesn't it?
* Re: nasalization, could you claim that the acoustic phonetics of high back unrounded vowels led them to be interpreted as nasalized, then becoming an articulatory feature of a later system?

[Edit: Just saw I was responding to two different Japonic works-in-progress, my apologies. I'll let it stand.]

Anyway, I'll re-read this more later, and definitely will want to hear more about this project. Thank you for introducing it to us!
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic

Post by Rounin Ryuuji »

fusijui wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:39 pm Throwing out some not-very-well-informed ideas:
* For initial voiced consonants, how about apocope of initial vowels after intervocalic voicing, of the sort *apa > *aba > ba ? That could be combined with your work with the pitch-accent system to limit how much territory it covers.
Given I've read more of the Francis-Ritte paper, and am thinking the initial voicing having always been there might not be as plausible as I'd supposed, this is one potential route I'm considering (another is analogical formations for words frequently in compounds), alongside having the change happen the other way, with the pitch accent conditioning voicing.
fusijui wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:39 pm * For /l/, what about having it develop from /n/ (instead of n > r)? It's pretty commonly attested in the region (Tungusic, I mean) and I think generally. Again, you could limit how far it goes (and preserve some syllable-initial /n/) by saying that it's either caused by nasal dissimilation (*nama > lama) or is preserved by a nasal neighbor (*nama/ > nama but *napa > lapa), and so on.
As a future sound change, this does actually happen intervocalically:

Ancient 茲乃 (inŏ) "this" > Modern ilù "this" (also 其乃 selù "that (mesial)"/彼乃 alù "that (distal)")
Ancient 犬 (inu) "dog" > Modern ilu "dog"

As far as initially, I'm not *entirely* sure, especially since I have random instances of initial */n/ > */r/
fusijui wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:39 pm * At least Tokyo-dialect macho-talk already has a trilled /r/, doesn't it?
I don't actually know.
fusijui wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:39 pm * Re: nasalization, could you claim that the acoustic phonetics of high back unrounded vowels led them to be interpreted as nasalized, then becoming an articulatory feature of a later system?
Possibly. It might be worth keeping in mind.
fusijui wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:39 pm [Edit: Just saw I was responding to two different Japonic works-in-progress, my apologies. I'll let it stand.]
I suppose the part about the trill in the Tokyo Dialect has something to do with this?
fusijui wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:39 pm Anyway, I'll re-read this more later, and definitely will want to hear more about this project. Thank you for introducing it to us!
Thank you.
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic

Post by Rounin Ryuuji »

Let us talk of verbs, those very wonderful things.

I love a complex verbal paradigm, this being another reason I wanted a Japonic language.

I am especially fond of the Classical Japanese shimo nidan conjugation, which has but one surviving member in the modern language, 得る「うる」uru, (classically a monosyllable 得「う」u, with many conjugated forms in 得「え」e; also note that 得る「える」eru also appears as a shimo ichidan verb in the modern language, being the expected reflex of Classical 得). Their classical conjugation is, in fact, essentially simply the shimo nidan suffixes, compare it with the classical conjugation of 開く aku, modern 開ける akeru; it looks as if we have some sort of verb stem *akŏ- (the reconstruction of -ŏ- from Old Japanese 来 *kŏ as the root of modern来る kuru, thence do I gather that all yodan verbs probably originally ended in such a weak vowel) and had the potential verb -u tacked onto it.

From here, I shall like to construct two potential particles (I perhaps use the word "particle" rather more liberally than I should) which could attach to the stem of a verb. The first of them is simply *-u, attaching to *-ŏ > *-ŏw (presumably > Japonic *-u, serving as a generic verbaliser), and the second is *-e, perhaps yielding *-ŏe > *-(w)e (presumably Japonic > *-e in the shimo nidan, and possibly also supplying the izenkei of the yodan). In Ancient Ifsume, this second form is also used with negation, and the -e is not eclipsed by the *a- of many inflectional suffixes and auxiliaries (even for the equivalents of yodan verbs), consequently no definite equivalent to the Japanese mizenkei emerges.

I ended up coming independently to a similar conclusion to the one Francis-Ratte proposes, in that I have derived an adnominal from worŏ (cf. Nih. "woru", an archaic alternate form of 居る iru, archaically wiru, or else an absorption of *u-arŏ- ("to perhaps be" >"to be"?) > worŏ; this matches well with Francis-Ratte's Adnominal -or; the Ancient Ifsume adnominal, by the time we attest anything, has usually reduced to -wrŏ(w) (the additonal -w is analogical with the predicative, and appears in a number of verbal forms that otherwise end in -ŏ). I do agree with his assessment that the loss of the -ro/-ru from the yodan conjugation was probably owing to the lengths some forms could have, with the rest being analogical. The izenkei may, by this pattern, also be a contracted form.

Where I would cordially disagree with him is on the point of the formation of the Izenkei, supposing -ura to have been a nominaliser, rather than identical to the suffix -ra appearing in 僕ら bokura、いくら ikura, 我ら warera, and I expect also 空 sora, which I tend to suppose was a plurale tantum. Rather, I imagine that it was initially simply a conjugation of the same *wor- or *or- verb, probably with the -e ending attached.

As far as the imperative is concerned, Ancient Ifsume can use either the bare -ŏ stem (the last remaining use it has in ordinary speech or writing), or append an ending -lŏ (this is based on my earlier supposition that r/y alternation may have indicated an earlier phoneme */l/) to the -e stem, the latter being significantly more gentle, more often used with suggesting, or even imploring, rather than commanding.

EDIT: What follows (and some of what precedes also) is now superseded by this, which goes into more detail but is not very much different from what is already here. Leaving the old material for reference (and because, at least to me, seeing my materials develop in quasi real-time is interesting).

Francis-Ratte suggests the alternation to be a result of the absorption of the -r- into consonant-stem verbs, and this could be the case — */krə/ > */kje/ is imminently plausible — but, not wanting to give the */l/ up for lost, I would contend that */klə/ > */kje/ is equally so; this is, further, not the only case of such alternation, with some Old Japanese passives (as given by Frellesvig) also showing an alternation of -r-/-y-; for now, I think */j/ and */r/ having once in some cases been */l/ is not impossible, especially where Francis-Ratte reconstructs */rr/ corresponding to some instances of Japonic */j/.

The equivalent to the yodan infinitive seems to absorb the nominaliser -i/-j, and ends in -ĕ

This results in a paradigm looking something like this, for the verb 花 saku - "to bloom, to flower":

Conclusive: 花㝵 sakŏw
Adnominal: 花㝒㝵 sakŏwrŏw
Exclamatory/Future: 花㝒𧴫 sakŏwre
Irrealis/Subjunctive: 花𧴫 sake
Imperative/Stem: 花 sakŏ
Infinitive/Perfective: 花艿 sakĕ

It looks very like a yodan conjugation, except, as mentioned before, there is no a-stem, and several of the other theme vowels are in some way different. This is also only typical of early attested forms — I mentioned before that I like the shimo nidan conjugation best, and what better way to reflect this fondness than to generalise it? Where to begin with that? The weakest stem seems to be the -ŏ, so perhaps the base could be regeneralised to the ĕ-stem, such that the spelling becomes 花 rather than 花艿, and the Imperative and Infinitive become identical, but not before we invent a new particle to attach to the imperative, abstracted out of verbs in -r-; yes, that will do nicely. Our new paradigm now looks more like this:

Conclusive: 花㝵 sakĕw
Adnominal: 花㝒㝵 sakĕwrĕw
Exclamatory/Future: 花㝒𧴫 sakĕwre
Irrealis/Subjunctive: 花𧴫 sake~sakye
Imperative: 花所 sakĕrŏ
Infinitive/Perfective: 花 sakĕ

It has a bit many diphthongs, but I think we can fix that:

Conclusive: 花㝵 saku
Adnominal: 花㝒㝵 sakworu
Exclamatory/Future: 花㝒𧴫 sakwore
Irrealis/Subjunctive: 花𧴫 sake~sakye
Imperative: 花所sakĕrŏ
Infinitive/Perfective: 花 sakĕ

My but it's being tenaciously not bigrade! Let's replace some of the stems!

Conclusive: 花㝵 saku
Adnominal: 花㝒㝵 sak(w)oru
Exclamatory/Future: 花㝒𧴫 sak(w)ore
Irrealis/Subjunctive: 花𧴫 sake~sache
Imperative: 花𧴫所 sakero~sachero
Infinitive/Perfective: 花𧴫 sake~sache

And poor lonely 花? Never fear — they become a happy solitary noun "sakĕ~saki". The verb is still some sort of tetragrade with a consonant alternation inside. Look, however, at all these pretty sound changes — we seem to have /kw/ > /k/ underway, some palatalised velars, and a merger of ŏ and o. The only problem is that poor perplexed ĕ does not seem to know what it wants to be (this gets very messy).

Here we have a nice new stage of the language, however — Classical Ifsume. It certainly looks rather Japanese, except that ch-sound before an e-vowel. We seem doomed to have ablauts forever, but it could be worse. We could hit a phase of the language that finds a special way of rearranging all those things. Will such a thing happen? Find out next time on A Little Dabbling in Japonic, Part 3: Old Tinasan!
Last edited by Rounin Ryuuji on Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic

Post by Rounin Ryuuji »

I haven't quite gotten my thoughts and notes into a form tidy enough to move on, but, given some discoveries I've made since the start, I've updated the initial post (all the original text is still there, simply some of it with strikethrough), and included a document for what I think might be more plausible sound changes from Proto-Japanese to Early japanese in a delightful font I've just discovered I have.

Before moving on further, I also feel the need to more fully expand and annotate (and give native orthography for) the list of lemmas already produced, and also probably give more details on phonology. I'm very happy there seem to be a few who like this; it's very encouraging, and an excellent source of further motivation.
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic

Post by Qwynegold »

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:56 amthis may have been done to distinguish between real plants and portrayals of them (this is culturally significant).
I'd like to know more about this. :o
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic

Post by Rounin Ryuuji »

Qwynegold wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 2:09 am
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:56 amthis may have been done to distinguish between real plants and portrayals of them (this is culturally significant).
I'd like to know more about this. :o
Flowers (and a few other natural motifs) are extremely prevalent in the associated traditional art, though the distinction between "sa" as an independent word, and 華 "isa" as above is lost by the time you attest anything — semantic drift later shifts 華 to mean "stamp, mark, insignia; (usually) large flower growing on its own stalk"); you also encounter the odd i- prefixing in 陽 "ipi" (used of the sun in the sky), 日 "pi" (sunlight, daylight, a depiction of the sun), which word itself behaves oddly — regular shifts mean it ought to be *bi, so it was either altered by its use in compounds altering the pitch (the word itself patterns in Ifsume as if it were a high-pitched initial originally — the pitch accent system gets reanalysed after the change that prompts initial voicing), or else reborrowed from some other Japonic variety (this group aren't specifically sun-worshippers).

Flowers are also used to identify certain groups within the culture — note that, while a retronym, "Ifsumé" (陽之葵) itself is a literary word for "Sunflower" in one of the daughter languages. The daughter languages also have such names, "Tinasan" (萌杝語 "Tinasis-iyu"), 萌 ("tina" is used historically for several different flowers, among them starflower, forget-me-not, and hyacinth; 萌杝 "tinasis" is also a literary or poetic word for "meadow"), and "Ineshîmé" (咲的芲語 "Inĕshîme-iyu") 咲的 (variously "ineshi-, inishe", depending on the position in a word) 芲 ("ime", originally a dialect word for "flower", now used with the specificity with which "blossom" can be in English, or even more "properly" for the flowers of peaches, plums, and apricots; also sounds similar to 桃 (Ifsume: "inmo", "inmĕ"; Tinasan:"inmĕ", "imi"; Ineshîmé: "imi"), though the similarity is coincidental).

The Ineshîmé (or "Inĕshîme" [i.n̪ɘ.ɕí͜ì.me̞]; the "English" spelling is based on older Romanisations of Japanese, which often transcribe "-suke" as "-suké", &c., to give a clear guide for how to approximate the vowel qualities rather than the lengths and pitches, which I expect most English-speakers will simply ignore) language is, incidentally, the one that is so designed to meet the original outlines, sounding rather Japanese, but arriving at the same phonoaesthetic through different results, and having several distinguishing phonological features (but more on that later).

Other words probably connected with the i-prefixing which was the original subject of discussion: 龍 ("izure") - "dragon", possibly meaning originally "root of life" ; 葉 ("ifa") - "leaf" ; 緣 ("iki") - "margin, boundary, edge" (this one also sometimes used to mark the boundary between the living and dead, or spirit and mundane; it also appears in a few personal names) ; its root is probably the initial syllable of 命 ("ihi") - "life, living; bio-", appearing in full in 生 ("ihiti") - "life force, vitality", but patterning phonetically as if a single word. The word 桃 mentioned earlier is probably a contraction of *i-*momo.

As for why it happens — the word for "flower" (as above) seems to be generalised to meaning "pattern, design" (owing to their ubiquity in art) and like things; cf. other words 錦 ("sasikĕ" - "brocade, fancy pattern", originally "repeating flowers", akin to Japanese "nishiki" - "repeating red"). Further than this would entail delving into some incomplete and heavily-fluctuating fantasy lore. What is more-or-less certain is that flowers are not seen as magical in themselves (you wouldn't be brewing magic potions with them or anything), but they are certainly magic-adjacent, and certain flowers are symbols of magic (especially white ones — white lilacs and wisteria specifically are internally symbols of sorcery) or supernatural creatures (internally, dragons — 龍 "Izure" — are are more connected with plants, by transference from other East Asian associations with water and life-giving; they are most commonly associated with early and middle spring, when flowers for which the word 芲 "ime" might be used), lesser spirits are seen as inhabiting plants or flowers (and also being drawn to both forests and water). I hope this answers something, at least.
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic

Post by Rounin Ryuuji »

Trying to compile everything into a comprehensible format, I have a list of "lemmas" (I might be using the word overliberally) here, updated to match the revised sound changes.
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic

Post by Qwynegold »

Oh, okay. So it had mostly to do with semantic drift of that one word. Maybe...
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic

Post by Rounin Ryuuji »

Qwynegold wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 3:58 pm Oh, okay. So it had mostly to do with semantic drift of that one word. Maybe...
That certainly influenced it, but there are elements of the fiction in play that I don't feel ready to reveal.
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