Conlang fluency thread

[hwhatting]

Yes, that would also be the difference between "Ist das kein Schwarzes Loch?" und "Ist das nicht ein Schwarzes Loch" in German.

Balyuful. Ina Olandes minu nahf no difa, an mi in sahtm mi cende di difa. "Is dat geen zwart gat?" an "Is dat niet een zwart gat?" sem fo mi.
Interesting. In Dutch there's no difference, and I'm not sure I understand it. "Is dat geen zwart gat?" and "Is dat niet een zwart gat?" are equal for me.

It's a difference of focus / nuance / implication. For me, "Ist das kein Schwarzes Loch?" implies "you seem to deny that this object is a black hole", while "ist das nicht ein schwarzes Loch?" implies that there is a chance that the interlocutor agrees that this is a black hole (It's parallel to "Isn't that Robert coming out of the bakery?") It can be also short for "Isn't that what is called 'Black Hole'?", e.g., in a response to a remark like "There is this kind of object in the universe that swallows all matter around it."; you wouldn't respond to that with "Ist das kein Schwarzes Loch?"

[KamareKitsune]

cləlta imu na þśiyančen ne cayət! udišo ina ʔiye iś kþa imu žah imi nuġya, tak, ʔiye iś žyo, ġaya imu twaħət nayu nuġya.
"Thankyou all for your welcoming words! I will admit I don't always remember to visit here, but when I do, I always enjoy the kindness I am shown."

[KamareKitsune]

@KamareKitsune adaiye! neincen mián sen Con-hWerceSopis ic. teán Helainan s'aiyelfan seor'aiyelfi Danaris il avannas ancemithas cwaritwacammithas tus. (:

greeting! remember-AOR 2F.ABS 1F.VOC ConWorkShop-OBL ABS.F / be-PAS Heláin-REFL my=language-REFL moon=language-ABS January-OBL LOC.F year-GEN 6⁴-ORD-GEN 3=2*6²-ORD-GEN 2-ORD-GEN.

Greetings! I remember you from ConWorkShop. My conlang Heláin was language of the month in January of 2018.

tak ina ŋəzza imu! tak taši no ulya sdaya haźa. reti, ina zya cu imu. tak śito sdaya runwən cunlən.
"I'm not surprised! I was quite a visible figure back then. However, I do not recognise you. I left several years ago."

[Travis B.]

Yes, that would also be the difference between "Ist das kein Schwarzes Loch?" und "Ist das nicht ein Schwarzes Loch" in German.

Balyuful. Ina Olandes minu nahf no difa, an mi in sahtm mi cende di difa. "Is dat geen zwart gat?" an "Is dat niet een zwart gat?" sem fo mi.
Interesting. In Dutch there's no difference, and I'm not sure I understand it. "Is dat geen zwart gat?" and "Is dat niet een zwart gat?" are equal for me.

It's a difference of focus / nuance / implication. For me, "Ist das kein Schwarzes Loch?" implies "you seem to deny that this object is a black hole", while "ist das nicht ein schwarzes Loch?" implies that there is a chance that the interlocutor agrees that this is a black hole (It's parallel to "Isn't that Robert coming out of the bakery?") It can be also short for "Isn't that what is called 'Black Hole'?", e.g., in a response to a remark like "There is this kind of object in the universe that swallows all matter around it."; you wouldn't respond to that with "Ist das kein Schwarzes Loch?"

That distinction is what I was trying to express, even though nicht should have come before en.

[jal]

It's a difference of focus / nuance / implication. For me, "Ist das kein Schwarzes Loch?" implies "you seem to deny that this object is a black hole", while "ist das nicht ein schwarzes Loch?" implies that there is a chance that the interlocutor agrees that this is a black hole (It's parallel to "Isn't that Robert coming out of the bakery?") It can be also short for "Isn't that what is called 'Black Hole'?", e.g., in a response to a remark like "There is this kind of object in the universe that swallows all matter around it."; you wouldn't respond to that with "Ist das kein Schwarzes Loch?"

Mi sway fil di difa ina Olandes, oba mi in ric. Fo mi dem sem.
I'm trying to feel the difference in Dutch, but I don't succeed. For me they're the same.


JAL

[Imralu]

It's a difference of focus / nuance / implication. For me, "Ist das kein Schwarzes Loch?" implies "you seem to deny that this object is a black hole", while "ist das nicht ein schwarzes Loch?" implies that there is a chance that the interlocutor agrees that this is a black hole (It's parallel to "Isn't that Robert coming out of the bakery?") It can be also short for "Isn't that what is called 'Black Hole'?", e.g., in a response to a remark like "There is this kind of object in the universe that swallows all matter around it."; you wouldn't respond to that with "Ist das kein Schwarzes Loch?"

Mi sway fil di difa ina Olandes, oba mi in ric. Fo mi dem sem.
I'm trying to feel the difference in Dutch, but I don't succeed. For me they're the same.

I mwemwe do, yu dwei zu wi ngezwe Datyi.
Maybe they are the same in Dutch.

U haze do, i mwemwe do, yu wai myegi ze nwi zyi ni bya wi nye byo wo, mye wai nge bya u loi bya.
Or maybe you just don't feel the difference when you're thinking about them, but you say something different in different situations.

Limui nggwa ngegyu u hei na u zyu nai baba bangwe nge dyi haqa nobody haqa no one, do nai nge zyu nai ze mu.
Students sometimes ask me whether I say 'nobody' or 'no one' more often, and I tell them I don't know.

Nai dzolo vwe mbya nwavwe u nwai gonggwa mye byai ze mwemwe, mye nai zi bimu zyui ma.
I've seen an example where one is natural and the other is not, but I don't remember what it was.

[bradrn]

Limui nggwa ngegyu u hei na u zyu nai baba bangwe nge dyi haqa nobody haqa no one, do nai nge zyu nai ze mu.
Students sometimes ask me whether I say 'nobody' or 'no one' more often, and I tell them I don't know.

Nai dzolo vwe mbya nwavwe u nwai gonggwa mye byai ze mwemwe, mye nai zi bimu zyui ma.
I've seen an example where one is natural and the other is not, but I don't remember what it was.

Noŋad rnos buwraŋwgiŋ, bleselbuʼi. Te anu-ŋad blsoŋ, sŋe anu nub.
[ˌno.ŋad̚.ʒnos.buw.raŋˈwɟiŋ | ble.selˈbuʔi | te.aˈnuŋ.ad̚.bə̆ˌlzoŋ | sŋe.a.ˈnu.nub̚]
no-oŋad r-nos bu-wraŋ-wgi·ŋ, b-les·e·lbuʼ-i. te anu-oŋad b-ls·oŋ, sŋe anu nub
some-FOC.NEG ACC-that.ANA but-like-be, 1s-think-3s. this job-FOC.NEG 1s-see, that job FOC.but

I don’t think there are any. They mean exactly the same thing to me.

[Travis B.]

Limui nggwa ngegyu u hei na u zyu nai baba bangwe nge dyi haqa nobody haqa no one, do nai nge zyu nai ze mu.
Students sometimes ask me whether I say 'nobody' or 'no one' more often, and I tell them I don't know.

Nai dzolo vwe mbya nwavwe u nwai gonggwa mye byai ze mwemwe, mye nai zi bimu zyui ma.
I've seen an example where one is natural and the other is not, but I don't remember what it was.

Noŋad rnos buwraŋwgiŋ, bleselbuʼi. Te anu-ŋad blsoŋ, sŋe anu nub.
[ˌno.ŋad̚.ʒnos.buw.raŋˈwɟiŋ | ble.selˈbuʔi | te.aˈnuŋ.ad̚.bə̆ˌlzoŋ | sŋe.a.ˈnu.nub̚]
no-oŋad r-nos bu-wraŋ-wgi·ŋ, b-les·e·lbuʼ-i. te anu-oŋad b-ls·oŋ, sŋe anu nub
some-FOC.NEG ACC-that.ANA but-like-be, 1s-think-3s. this job-FOC.NEG 1s-see, that job FOC.but

I don’t think there are any. They mean exactly the same thing to me.

"Anyone" and "anybody" meen de samme ding für mi, aber gewoonlik seg ik "anyone".
"Anyone" and "anybody" mean the same thing for me, but I normally say "anyone".

[Imralu]

Noŋad rnos buwraŋwgiŋ, bleselbuʼi. Te anu-ŋad blsoŋ, sŋe anu nub.
[ˌno.ŋad̚.ʒnos.buw.raŋˈwɟiŋ | ble.selˈbuʔi | te.aˈnuŋ.ad̚.bə̆ˌlzoŋ | sŋe.a.ˈnu.nub̚]
no-oŋad r-nos bu-wraŋ-wgi·ŋ, b-les·e·lbuʼ-i. te anu-oŋad b-ls·oŋ, sŋe anu nub
some-FOC.NEG ACC-that.ANA but-like-be, 1s-think-3s. this job-FOC.NEG 1s-see, that job FOC.but

I don’t think there are any. They mean exactly the same thing to me.

Dewai de u nai zi zami zyi u go.
That's what I thought too.

[jal]

Fo mi, "anybody/nobody" a mo bo difa man pas "anyone/no-one". Ina Sajiwan dis difa in de. It a "olda wan man" (anybody/anyone) an "no man" (nobody/no-one).
For me, "anybody/nobody" is more about seperate persons than "anyone/no-one". In Sajiwan the difference doesn't exist. It's "olda wan man" (anybody/anyone) and "no man" (nobody/no-one).


JAL

[xxx]

{Ï{Às}bb}Ó
(my talk about zero man and lack of man...)
I could says zero man or lack of man...

[Imralu]

Fo mi, "anybody/nobody" a mo bo difa man pas "anyone/no-one". Ina Sajiwan dis difa in de. It a "olda wan man" (anybody/anyone) an "no man" (nobody/no-one).
For me, "anybody/nobody" is more about seperate persons than "anyone/no-one".

Nai zyu nai mwemwe nwi zyiwa u go.
I think I might feel that too.

Mye nai mbo ze mwe nozyo nwavwe ye zye mu nibya.
But I still can't think of an example that differentiates them.

In Sajiwan the difference doesn't exist. It's "olda wan man" (anybody/anyone) and "no man" (nobody/no-one).

Zengoi nye zowa.
No one's coming. / Nobody's coming.

I zengo ye nye zowa.
No one's coming. / Nobody's coming.

I ze hagi nwa ngo ye nye zowa.
No one at all is coming. / Nobody's coming at all. / Not even one person is coming.

Nai ze vwe ngo.
I don't see anyone. / I don't see anybody. / I don't see a person. / I don't see people.

Nai ze vwe ya hagi nwa ngo.
I don't see anyone at all. / I don't see anybody at all. / I don't see even one person.

[KamareKitsune]

tak žiyo imiźinən-Naswi nusuzzən hola imya, ina art aša imu ar qanəpśen nećen.
"I'm remaking Naswiyan's indefinite pronouns right now, so I can't show them to you."

[Imralu]

tak žiyo imiźinən-Naswi nusuzzən hola imya, ina art aša imu ar qanəpśen nećen.
"I'm remaking Naswiyan's indefinite pronouns right now, so I can't show them to you."

Wai mwe zyeu narei vwe zyi zi.
You could show us how they used to be.

Ngoi nye zowa.
The person's coming.

I ngo ye nye zowa.
Someone's coming. / A person is coming. / There's a person who's coming.

[KamareKitsune]

Wai mwe zyeu narei vwe zyi zi.
You could show us how they used to be.

hža tu!
That's true!

Ngoi nye zowa.
The person's coming.

tak isi her o.

I ngo ye nye zowa.
Someone's coming.

tak lu zyu her o.

it "lu" śu ćusər sade qunp lanət. tak laġna ciþat iś śi ar liyi šetan nusuzzən in laħ mwiti źpisi.
"lu" is a sentential enclitic that marks emphasis. It is often used to allow indefinite subjects by creating cleft sentences.

[bradrn]

Ngoi nye zowa.
The person's coming.

Eŋes tosarise.
person 3s.DEF-PROG-come

I ngo ye nye zowa.
Someone's coming.

Naʼ sarise.
someone/who PROG-come

A person is coming.

Eŋes sarise.
person PROG-come

There's a person who's coming.

Eŋes ni sarise.
person FOC PROG-come
(also It’s a/the person who’s coming)

Zengoi nye zowa.
No one's coming. / Nobody's coming.

I zengo ye nye zowa.
No one's coming. / Nobody's coming.

Naʼoŋad sarise.
someone/who-FOC.NEG PROG-come

or:

Eŋes oŋad sarise.
person-FOC.NEG PROG-come

I ze hagi nwa ngo ye nye zowa.
No one at all is coming. / Nobody's coming at all. / Not even one person is coming.

Eŋes yam oŋad sarise.
person one FOC.NEG PROG-come

Nai ze vwe ngo.
I don't see anyone. / I don't see anybody.

Naʼoŋad blsoŋ.
someone/who-FOC.NEG 1s-see

I don't see a person. / I don't see people.

Eŋes oŋad blsoŋ.
person FOC.NEG 1s-see

Nai ze vwe ya hagi nwa ngo.
I don't see anyone at all. / I don't see anybody at all. / I don't see even one person.

Eŋes yam oŋad blsoŋ.
person one FOC.NEG 1s-see

[Imralu]

Kai tar Bairar Keurar gar?
Q.POS this-F-SUBJ Sea.Panther-MASC Black-MASC in
“Wasn’t it in Black Panther?”

Ha mbingu bara dwo u ya zwara?
Sea panther?

[jal]

No one's coming. / Nobody's coming.

No man a kom wok.

No one at all is coming. / Nobody's coming at all.

No man a kom wok atol* / No man atol a kom wok
*This might also be interpreted as "Nobody's even coming", though it's difficult to think of an example where this would be natural.

Not even one person is coming.

No wan man a kom wok / No wan man a kom wok sef / No wan man atol a kom wok

I don't see anyone. / I don't see anybody. / I don't see a person.

Mi in luk no man

I don't see people.

Mi in luk no pipl

I don't see anyone at all. / I don't see anybody at all

Mi in luk no man atol

I don't see even one person.

Mi in luk no wan man sef


JAL

[Pedant]

Kai tar Bairar Keurar gar?
Q.POS this-F-SUBJ Sea.Panther-MASC Black-MASC in
“Wasn’t it in Black Panther?”

Ha mbingu bara dwo u ya zwara?
Sea panther?

Nappor - tasar iakta-i alsedos masokos Insodonen peusanos. (Pantheian ektaian hyko.)
1s-nod.yes-PRES.IND.ACT / this-COM-SUBJ.S type-CONST.S otter-NOM.S giant-COM-NOM.S Trithalassic-OBJ.S inhabit-PRES.ACT.PART-COM-NOM.S / Panther-OBJ.PL genuine-MASC-OBJ.PL 3p-lack-PRES.IND.ACT
"Yep - it's a kind of giant otter living in the Trithalassic. (They don't have actual panthers.)"

[Travis B.]

No one's coming. / Nobody's coming.

Yazâl yáň tsezétsa.

No one at all is coming. / Nobody's coming at all.

Yak'zâl yáň tsezétsa.

Not even one person is coming.

Yanzâl yáň tsezétsa.

I don't see anyone. / I don't see anybody. / I don't see a person.

Éñna yáň natseyqór zâl.

I don't see people.

Éñna yáň nagjàyqór zâľi. or Éñna yáň nagjàyqór kâp.

I don't see anyone at all. / I don't see anybody at all

Éñna yáň natseyqór k'azâl.

I don't see even one person.

Éñna yáň natseyqór nañzâl.