Linguistic Miscellany Thread

[Raphael]

Perhaps, just speculating, something like "The honored and sacred number one [or two]"?

It's a dead language, so it may well have been recorded very early, by someone not trained as a linguist. (That set was sent to me, so I don't have the original source.) So someone trying to elicit '2' maybe got something like 'the number 2' or 'second finger' or whatever.

But equally possible, it's something grammatically required in the language, for whatever reason. As an analogy, Dungan Chinese has yigɨ lyongɨ sangɨ for 1/2/3. The gɨ is not mysterious; it's a measure word that's got affixed to the numbers.

Thank you!

[malloc]

People were talking about shortening number names in the Conlang Random Thread, so naturally I got to wondering what the longest natlang names for numbers are.

I'm just eyeballing this, but it's close enough:

1 (N Nambilkuara) – naĭúkənadaiş̌
2 (Kuwama) – parkatangkenʸ
3 (Bororo) – ure póbe ma jéw metúya bokwáre
4 (Chaap Wuurong) – pūlīt whummin bā pūlīt whummin
5 (Wathawurung) – bulatj-ba-bulatj-ba-kuimatj
6 (Hamtai) – feca hatuanga akapu hatuanga fati
7 (Moro) – ðέέnaŋ náŋáƚḿέñ́έ gáɽijan
8 (Enga) – mange-lao-waketau
9 (Bunabun) – ambentavdji’rukənem
10 (Mesem) – bainimbegere baje delang

Obviously those are all from different languages. Nonetheless, I must wonder how those languages count things with any degree of efficiency. Imagine trying to translate Neunundneunzig Luftballons into Mesem.

[hwhatting]

But equally possible, it's something grammatically required in the language, for whatever reason. As an analogy, Dungan Chinese has yigɨ lyongɨ sangɨ for 1/2/3. The gɨ is not mysterious; it's a measure word that's got affixed to the numbers.

Reminds me of Uzbek. You count bir, ikki, uch, but if you mention the counted thing, especially if they are concrete items, you have to add -ta: bitta, ikkita, uchta. One could easily imagine that extension being carried over into counting as well. (IIRC, ta as a counter is from Persian. The influence of Persian / Tajik on Uzbek is huge; I've even observed Persian numbers being used for counting, in card games (yek, du, se).

[hwhatting]

Obviously those are all from different languages. Nonetheless, I must wonder how those languages count things with any degree of efficiency. Imagine trying to translate Neunundneunzig Luftballons into Mesem.

I assume that when counting, they do it with gestures, using body counting systems (with fingers, toes, other body parts having conventional numbers associated to them) and only use the numbers to announce the results. And when the need arises to regularly use higher numbers, other number systems are loaned for that from the people you trade with (my daughter's boyfriend's birth language is Ilonggo, and he says that basically everyone is using Spanish numbers instead of the native Austronesian counting system).

[jal]

Perhaps, just speculating, something like "The honored and sacred number one [or two]"?

"The one and only", "Only this one and no other" etc.


JAL

[Travis B.]

This reminds me of urban legends about how when Europeans first tried to ask indigenous people from some given part of the world what X was called they responded with Y which was not the term for X in their language and said Europeans did not realize this.

[jal]

This reminds me urban legends about how when Europeans first tried to ask indigenous people from some given part of the world what X was called they responded with Y which was not the term for X in their language and said Europeans did not realize this.

"Kangaroo" comes to mind, which supposedly meant "I don't know" in some indigenous Australian language.


JAL

[Raphael]

And then he told me
"Angikhulumi isingisi
Unaye umhumushi?
Yeka ukuklabalasa"
Well, I couldn't speak his language, I couldn't even understand a word
But I knew his meaning was what I decided I had heard

[Travis B.]

This reminds me urban legends about how when Europeans first tried to ask indigenous people from some given part of the world what X was called they responded with Y which was not the term for X in their language and said Europeans did not realize this.

"Kangaroo" comes to mind, which supposedly meant "I don't know" in some indigenous Australian language.

When in fact gangurru does mean a large gray or black kangaroo in the Guugu Yimidhirr language.

[Qwynegold]

Back when I studied Japanese in middle and high school, I specifically pronounced what is written in romaji as ⟨r⟩ as a lateral flap, but when I see it described in most contexts I see it being referred to just as a flap, without any mention of lateralness or at most mention that it is sometimes lateral. I know some people on this board are familiar with Japanese ─ do any of you pronounce this consistently as a lateral flap?

I do, but I don't know how consistently.

[Travis B.]

I've spoken in length about my own English here, but do any of the other board members, or any of the family members of the other board members, speak in a highly diglossic fashion, or typically write in a language (excepting English) other than the language they typically speak? I know MacAnDàil is very familiar with Reunionese Creole, Scots, and Scottish Gaelic alongside French and English, and I know when Linguoboy was on here amongst other things he knew both Standard German and IIRC some Swabian variety.

[hwhatting]

I know when Linguoboy was on here amongst other things he knew both Standard German and IIRC some Swabian variety.

Badensian. Don't call them Swabians down there, you'll get run out of town tarred and feathered.
By the way, does anyone know what's going on with Linguoboy and why he doesn't show up here anymore? I miss him.

[KamareKitsune]

Does anyone happen to know if any research has been done on the origins of interrogative words, and if so, where I might find anything written about it?

[jal]

Does anyone happen to know if any research has been done on the origins of interrogative words, and if so, where I might find anything written about it?

Cross-linguistically?


JAL

[bradrn]

Does anyone happen to know if any research has been done on the origins of interrogative words, and if so, where I might find anything written about it?

Well, one often-noted commonality is that interrogatives are often very similar to indefinites, or more generally demonstratives. For this I refer you to Bhat’s Pronouns, which has quite a detailed discussion.

[malloc]

By the way, does anyone know what's going on with Linguoboy and why he doesn't show up here anymore? I miss him.

Indeed. He used to be a major poster and moderator so it seems odd that he apparently vanished without a trace. I just hope nothing happened to him.

[KamareKitsune]

Does anyone happen to know if any research has been done on the origins of interrogative words, and if so, where I might find anything written about it?

Cross-linguistically?


JAL

Yes.

Does anyone happen to know if any research has been done on the origins of interrogative words, and if so, where I might find anything written about it?

Well, one often-noted commonality is that interrogatives are often very similar to indefinites, or more generally demonstratives. For this I refer you to Bhat’s Pronouns, which has quite a detailed discussion.

Haspelmath makes a convincing case that the relationship between interrogatives and indefinites is always that indefinites are derived from interrogatives, never the reverse.

[Richard W]

I've spoken in length about my own English here, but do any of the other board members, or any of the family members of the other board members, speak in a highly diglossic fashion, or typically write in a language (excepting English) other than the language they typically speak? I know MacAnDàil is very familiar with Reunionese Creole, Scots, and Scottish Gaelic alongside French and English, and I know when Linguoboy was on here amongst other things he knew both Standard German and IIRC some Swabian variety.

Probably my wife, but it's hard to be sure. Her native language is Northern Thai, and she usually speaks that with most blood relatives living in Thailand. She writes in Central Thai. While she can distinguish /r/ and /l/ and utter them as the second element of clusters, she normally doesn't. She always uses /r/ for my name. I don't know how well she nowadays knows the letters and clusters that words are spelt with, but back when we were courting, she didn't, which could cause me trouble reading her letters. She's told me that she's sometimes caught herself speaking North Eastern Thai (Isan), which seems to be the native speech variety of most of the people she speaks Thai to face-to-face nowadays.

[zompist]

I've spoken in length about my own English here, but do any of the other board members, or any of the family members of the other board members, speak in a highly diglossic fashion, or typically write in a language (excepting English) other than the language they typically speak?

My wife, probably. She grew up in Iquitos, Peru, and the local variety is both phonologically distinct and suffused with Quechua. (Linguoboy in fact talked about her "crazy jungle Spanish".) But she also knows and uses standard Latin American Spanish— she has a degree in Spanish and has worked as an editor.

[Travis B.]

By the way, does anyone know what's going on with Linguoboy and why he doesn't show up here anymore? I miss him.

I too wonder about this. I hope he's okay.