Linguistic Miscellany Thread

[Moose-tache]

English speakers don't have a "dislike" of pronouncing initial k or g anymore than they have a "dislike" for pronouncing the z in the word "duck."

[Travis B.]

English speakers don't have a "dislike" of pronouncing initial k or g anymore than they have a "dislike" for pronouncing the z in the word "duck."

Also, many present-day English-speakers are perfectly capable of pronouncing initial /kn/ or /gn/ ─ they just don't in the case of words like know or knight simply because in modern English these words don't contain /kn/ in the first place.

[Richard W]

English speakers don't have a "dislike" of pronouncing initial k or g anymore than they have a "dislike" for pronouncing the z in the word "duck."

Also, many present-day English-speakers are perfectly capable of pronouncing initial /kn/ or /gn/ ─ they just don't in the case of words like know or knight simply because in modern English these words don't contain /kn/ in the first place.

Interesting, When I was young, I had a strong disbelief in initial [kn] for any language. Years later, the defeated disbelief got a belated reinforcement when I discovered that Khmer initial /kn/ was [kʰən].

[bradrn]

English speakers don't have a "dislike" of pronouncing initial k or g anymore than they have a "dislike" for pronouncing the z in the word "duck."

Also, many present-day English-speakers are perfectly capable of pronouncing initial /kn/ or /gn/ ─ they just don't in the case of words like know or knight simply because in modern English these words don't contain /kn/ in the first place.

Interesting, When I was young, I had a strong disbelief in initial [kn] for any language. Years later, the defeated disbelief got a belated reinforcement when I discovered that Khmer initial /kn/ was [kʰən].

Did you never hear of kneidelach?

[jal]

Also, many present-day English-speakers are perfectly capable of pronouncing initial /kn/ or /gn/ ─ they just don't in the case of words like know or knight simply because in modern English these words don't contain /kn/ in the first place.

While these are original English words, many (all?) loan words follow the same rules: gnosticism, knackwurst, etc. So I'd say that yes, there's a (subconscious, phonologically triggered) dislike for initial kn- and gn-.


JAL

[Travis B.]

Also, many present-day English-speakers are perfectly capable of pronouncing initial /kn/ or /gn/ ─ they just don't in the case of words like know or knight simply because in modern English these words don't contain /kn/ in the first place.

While these are original English words, many (all?) loan words follow the same rules: gnosticism, knackwurst, etc. So I'd say that yes, there's a (subconscious, phonologically triggered) dislike for initial kn- and gn-.

Traditionally German names are pronounced here with initial /kn-/ and /gn-/. (I should note though that Knuth pronounces his name with a epenthetic schwa, and he was born in Wisconsin.)

However, knackwurst is normally pronounced here with initial /n-/. It feels like dissimilation though, as /ˈknɑkˌwɜrst/ [ˈkʰn̥aʔkˌwʁ̩ˤsʲtʲ] just feels like a mouthful with two /k/'s in the initial syllable.

As for gnosticism, I pronounce it with initial /gn-/ in my head...

[jal]

Traditionally German names are pronounced here with initial /kn-/ and /gn-/.

Is that an arial feature, perhaps because there's a lot of people with that descent? I can't imagine that goes for the entire US? Anyone from the UK that can weigh in about what's usual there?


JAL

[Travis B.]

Traditionally German names are pronounced here with initial /kn-/ and /gn-/.

Is that an arial feature, perhaps because there's a lot of people with that descent? I can't imagine that goes for the entire US? Anyone from the UK that can weigh in about what's usual there?

German descent is not unique to Wisconsin. It's the largest self-reported ancestry group in the US, even though likely because people of English ancestry often self-report as 'American'.

[Richard W]

Interesting, When I was young, I had a strong disbelief in initial [kn] for any language. Years later, the defeated disbelief got a belated reinforcement when I discovered that Khmer initial /kn/ was [kʰən].

Did you never hear of kneidelach?

No, nor has Wiktionary.

[jal]

No, nor has Wiktionary.

Likely because it's called "kneidlach".


JAL

[bradrn]

No, nor has Wiktionary.

Likely because it's called "kneidlach".

Well, Wikipedia lists nine different variant forms (and a further four for the singular), and I’m sure that yet more exist…

[Travis B.]

No, nor has Wiktionary.

Likely because it's called "kneidlach".

Well, Wikipedia lists nine different variant forms (and a further four for the singular), and I’m sure that yet more exist…

The Scripps National Spelling Bee really should not have chosen "knaidel" as a word...

[Travis B.]

For the singular there should be eight possible spellings, "knaidel", "knaidl", "knaydel", "knaydl", "kneidel", "kneidl", "kneydel", and "kneydl". For the plural, multiply that by four, for -"ach", -"akh", -"ech", and -"ekh".

[bradrn]

For the singular there should be eight possible spellings, "knaidel", "knaidl", "knaydel", "knaydl", "kneidel", "kneidl", "kneydel", and "kneydl". For the plural, multiply that by four, for -"ach", -"akh", -"ech", and -"ekh".

I don’t think I’ve seen the plural spelled with ⟨e⟩ myself. On the other hand, Wikipedia also lists some Anglicised plurals in -s.

[Richard W]

Well, Wikipedia lists nine different variant forms (and a further four for the singular), and I’m sure that yet more exist…

I'm not seeing any evidence they've found their way into Gentile culture. And the Wiktionary pronunciation has schwa.-

[Richard W]

Is that an arial feature, perhaps because there's a lot of people with that descent? I can't imagine that goes for the entire US? Anyone from the UK that can weigh in about what's usual there?

I would say these initial clusters just aren't there in normal British pronunciation. Some dialects reflected Old English cn as /tn/, but whether they survived the 20th century is another matter. I will also remark that achieving a schwa-less pronunciation was hard for me.

[Travis B.]

For me, for instance, I naturally pronounce knaidel as /ˈknaɪdəl/ [ˈkʰn̥ae̯ɾɯ(ː)].

[anteallach]

Traditionally German names are pronounced here with initial /kn-/ and /gn-/.

Is that an arial feature, perhaps because there's a lot of people with that descent? I can't imagine that goes for the entire US? Anyone from the UK that can weigh in about what's usual there?


JAL

Well, we don't have that many people with German names by Wisconsin standards. I would say that in my experience people who refer to Donald Knuth (who was indeed born in Wisconsin) generally do pronounce the /k/, because it is widely known that it should be pronounced. However whether they also include a schwa, as that Wikipedia page does, would vary.

I was introduced to the possibility of pronouncing a /k/ in <kn> by Roald Dahl with his Vermicious Knids; the book is quite clear that you are supposed to pronounce it. Whether the result was /kəˈnɪd/ or /knɪd/ I don't really know now, but now I would think of it as the latter.

I would pronounce /k/ in knackwurst (not, to be clear, a word in my regular vocabulary) but that is because it is so obviously German.

[Man in Space]

A few hours ago, I learnt (via Babble) that certain nouns in Polish are often assigned to be animate if they're of recent technological vintage (komputer and monitor do not receive this treatment but SMS and laptop do). I did not expect that. Might be useful for conlanging purposes.

[Travis B.]

For me, for instance, I naturally pronounce knaidel as /ˈknaɪdəl/ [ˈkʰn̥ae̯ɾɯ(ː)].

And it seems that that pronunciation is actually incorrect, as the ⟨ai⟩ seems to actually be supposed to be pronouncded in English with /eɪ/, which would make that /ˈkneɪdəl/ [ˈkʰn̥e̞ːɾɯ(ː)].