United States Politics Thread 47

[Travis B.]

Out of curiosity, how are the Americans here dealing with the partly politics-related twin disasters of wildfire smoke and diarrhea?

I don't know anyone who has experienced diarrhea myself, but the smoke is definitely horrid in southeastern Wisconsin ATM.

[Torco]

Everyone here seems to agree that Trump and his followers are not nearly as clever or competent as I often fear. If so, then what would a truly competent and intelligent fascist movement look like? What would they be doing differently from Trump and company?

incompetence often shows more as "shouldn't have done X" rather than "should have done Y". also, it's weird to speak just of competence, one has to speak about competence at: that is to say, if we're in a bike race and your goal is to win the race but mine is to steal your bike, you might think it incompetent of me to crash into you, get off my bike, get on yours and start pedaling not-towards-the-goal. but in context, i think here we mean competence-at-ruling-the-us [namely, in such a way as to, in the long term, make its geopolitical position stronger and to raise the standard of living of americans, as well as the country's internal stability].

along those lines, not dismantling the US's soft power internationally would have been a good idea. fascist or not fascist, it's good if most people in other countries think your country is generally all right. Also, the Iran war is probably pointless and expensive. the whole doge deal as well, ended up saving no money and dismantling a lot of useful-in-the-long-term institutions. driving out your scientist class is also a bad move, even if you do get a few popularity points with foxnews consumers and incels: when 75% of your scientists are considering leaving, your scientific future is probably not bright. this news cycle of trump says war is over on monday, on tuesday swears he will nuke the enemy, on friday says he's achieved a good peace deal, and on saturday says the war is on motherfucker... well, that kind of volatility is not good for investment, economic development, or a regime's longevity.

like, when we say trump is incompetent... when I say trump is incompetent, at least, i'm not saying he's evil or that he has goals which are politically undesirable: he is, but these are two different things. as previous US administrations showed, you can have your concentration camps, race pogroms, disappearing of dissidents, election rigging, criminalization of unions and civil rights activism, slave camps instead of prisons, theocracy, rounding up of the homeless, disenfranchisement of women and minorities, mandatory birth policies, religious indoctrination in schools, and perpetual wars [all the goals of the american right wing lato senso, wherein i classify the uniparty (yeah yeah, the uniparty doctrine is controversial, i know, i'm here explaining what i mean, you can continue to believe the democrats are opposition)] you can do all those things without lettuce diarrhea, brain drain, wildfires, or your country being seen as an unreliable partner.

of course, this may be the cyclist in the above example going "why are you taking my bike and riding south? the finish line is north!".

[Raphael]

Linguistic note that sort of touches on something political.

There's a specific kind of NAE accent that I've long thought of as kind of "the" US American accent. But now I'm no longer sure, and wonder whether it might be a specific New England accent. That's because, as part of my general hopeless-politics-nerd thing, I skimmed a bit through one of the debates between Maine Democrats hoping to replace Graham Platner on the Senate ballot, and several of the candidates, as well as at least one of the moderators, seem to speak with that accent: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MuOr6Nnki0

Out of curiosity, how are the Americans here dealing with the partly politics-related twin disasters of wildfire smoke and diarrhea?

I don't know anyone who has experienced diarrhea myself, but the smoke is definitely horrid in southeastern Wisconsin ATM.

Thank you. Good luck!

[Travis B.]

Linguistic note that sort of touches on something political.

There's a specific kind of NAE accent that I've long thought of as kind of "the" US American accent. But now I'm no longer sure, and wonder whether it might be a specific New England accent. That's because, as part of my general hopeless-politics-nerd thing, I skimmed a bit through one of the debates between Maine Democrats hoping to replace Graham Platner on the Senate ballot, and several of the candidates, as well as at least one of the moderators, seem to speak with that accent: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MuOr6Nnki0

I didn't watch much of the video because I hate sitting through videos, but the moderators both seemed to speak very straight GA to me, whereas the only candidate I actually listened to any of, Shenna Bellows, did not.

[alice]

Everyone here seems to agree that Trump and his followers are not nearly as clever or competent as I often fear. If so, then what would a truly competent and intelligent fascist movement look like? What would they be doing differently from Trump and company?

I'm not sure there is such a thing. Fascism is not based on competence or intelligence, and in fact distrusts if not despises them.

Is such a thing possible, though, where there's a sweet spot between "competent and intelligent" and "fascist"?

@malloc: could you be more specific about what it its you're afraid of, *without* mentioning AI? What can you do now that you worry you won't be able to do when the "fascists" take over?

[Travis B.]

Everyone here seems to agree that Trump and his followers are not nearly as clever or competent as I often fear. If so, then what would a truly competent and intelligent fascist movement look like? What would they be doing differently from Trump and company?

I'm not sure there is such a thing. Fascism is not based on competence or intelligence, and in fact distrusts if not despises them.

Is such a thing possible, though, where there's a sweet spot between "competent and intelligent" and "fascist"?

I think the sweet spot is some varieties of authoritarian conservatism ─ keeping a grip on power while not doing anything stupid that in the long term could result in losing that power or that power being diminished. Think Singapore.

(And to malloc, Trump is not this by a long shot.)

[jcb]

Out of curiosity, how are the Americans here dealing with the partly politics-related twin disasters of wildfire smoke and diarrhea?

The air quality in my city has been literally the worst I've ever seen it today and yesterday, but thankfully I'm still pooping normally!

[zompist]

Or we could get back to Umberto Eco's ur-fascism: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library ... ur-fascism and see how much of the description fits.

I've seen his list (in a more truncated form) but the whole essay is masterful, thanks for sharing it.

In the US, it's curious that the far right seems to have no taste for street battles. You get some shootings, of course, but that's a statistical blip, nothing like Mussolini's blackshirts. Maybe it's the TV generation's version of fascism: let ICE do the dirty work, they're too busy looksmaxxxing.

[bradrn]

the whole essay is masterful

It really, really is. One of my favourite political essays (in a depressing sort of way, I guess).

[Ketsuban]

In the US, it's curious that the far right seems to have no taste for street battles. You get some shootings, of course, but that's a statistical blip, nothing like Mussolini's blackshirts. Maybe it's the TV generation's version of fascism: let ICE do the dirty work, they're too busy looksmaxxxing.

Sort of (although I'd contend that "the TV generation" is now in its sixties and seventies). The new technology being employed is stochastic terrorism: rather than organising a lynch mob to terrorise a minority population, you can just amplify rhetoric suggesting (obliquely, so as not to arouse the attention of a criminal justice system on the lookout for "inciting violence") that terrorising that minority population would be cool and good, and then wait to see which vulnerable person cracks first while claiming if anyone asks that it's all just jokes and you don't mean any of it. (Militarised police in the US, which ICE is an extension of, made for a good patsy at one point because they'll flinch if you say boo, so you could send in an anonymous tip that a target of your choosing is planning a violent act and have a SWAT team break down their door for you.)

Resources like Wikipedia don't manage to capture it particularly well because they're focused on the bubbles rather than the foam: the idiot who posts a manifesto on 8chan and then livestreams himself shooting up a mosque is simultaneously a failure (because it was all just jokes, nobody wanted that to happen!) and the system working exactly as intended (you got your terror, even if it took a bit longer than if you'd organised a lynch mob) but the bread-and-butter is the sublimation of the right-wing symbol Pepe the Frog into anodyne Twitch emotes and the upside-down OK gesture at the waist which despite having happened extremely publically twice now has resulted in minimal recognition and no disciplinary action of any kind.

[malloc]

I think the sweet spot is some varieties of authoritarian conservatism ─ keeping a grip on power while not doing anything stupid that in the long term could result in losing that power or that power being diminished. Think Singapore.

Maybe but that assumes there is some way to force Trump or his successor out of power if they anger too many people. That seems far from certain depending on whether they find ways to rig or even cancel elections.

[Travis B.]

I think the sweet spot is some varieties of authoritarian conservatism ─ keeping a grip on power while not doing anything stupid that in the long term could result in losing that power or that power being diminished. Think Singapore.

Maybe but that assumes there is some way to force Trump or his successor out of power if they anger too many people. That seems far from certain depending on whether they find ways to rig or even cancel elections.

Trump even when he did his big speech yesterday largely just spewed out conspiracy theories without actually doing anything like suspending elections, suspending the Constitution, or like, even though you could argue that he could have sent forth his goons in coordination with his speech to arrest and summarily execute all the Democrat politicians and in his speech simultaneously announced that he was canceling the midterms and appointing himself President for Life.

[Raphael]

In the US, it's curious that the far right seems to have no taste for street battles. You get some shootings, of course, but that's a statistical blip, nothing like Mussolini's blackshirts. Maybe it's the TV generation's version of fascism: let ICE do the dirty work, they're too busy looksmaxxxing.

A while ago, I saw a social media post that said something like, I think, "We're lucky that this generation of fascists came of age shitposting and playing video games, instead of killing each other with knifes in trenches".

[Raphael]

Trump is going after Brazil, really to help his buddy Bolsonaro, but part of the official justification is, well...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... us-tariffs

After the US supreme court ruled against many of Trump’s tariffs imposed under a different law, Brazil will become the first country targeted under the new strategy, which relies on Section 301 of US trade law, a provision authorising investigations into alleged unfair trade practices.

The USTR’s final decision alleged that Brazil had adopted practices that “burden or restrict” US commerce, including the use of Pix, a free and highly popular instant payment system, which it argued harmed US credit card companies.

"Wah wah, the competition offers a better product than us! Wah wah, that's an unfair disadvantage!"

I wonder what happens once someone tells Trump about the standard options available as routine services in European online banking, or the way ATM cards have ended up doubling as debit cards in, at least, Germany, and perhaps other places as well.

[bradrn]

I wonder what happens once someone tells Trump about the standard options available as routine services in European online banking, or the way ATM cards have ended up doubling as debit cards in, at least, Germany, and perhaps other places as well.

What’s an ‘ATM card’?

[Raphael]

I wonder what happens once someone tells Trump about the standard options available as routine services in European online banking, or the way ATM cards have ended up doubling as debit cards in, at least, Germany, and perhaps other places as well.

What’s an ‘ATM card’?

I mean the kind of cards that, when they were first introduced, back in the mists of time, were mainly meant for withdrawing money from ATMs, but that later, at least in Germany, ended up as widely accepted debit cards.

[alice]

... or the way ATM cards have ended up doubling as debit cards in, at least, Germany, and perhaps other places as well.

In Britain, too; I've also used mine as a debit card in Mexico and various other European countries.

[Ares Land]

I wonder what happens once someone tells Trump about the standard options available as routine services in European online banking, or the way ATM cards have ended up doubling as debit cards in, at least, Germany, and perhaps other places as well.

I suspect a darker motive.
Trump can decide - or decided he could, by executive order, sanctions against people he doesn't like; this happened to ICC judges: https://hls.harvard.edu/today/u-s-sanct ... nal-court/

This specifically forbids, I am told, American companies to do business with you. That includes Visa and Mastercard, so of course it's a massive inconvenience. You can guess why Trump does not want any competition in that area.

[Raphael]

Michael Tracey, supposed journalist who started out on the hard left and is, by now, more like just some kind of generic bizarro, might have hit a new low even for him. Content warning: child rape apologia:

https://bsky.app/profile/postleftwatch. ... uwwwax722o

[Travis B.]

Michael Tracey, supposed journalist who started out on the hard left and is, by now, more like just some kind of generic bizarro, might have hit a new low even for him. Content warning: child rape apologia:

https://bsky.app/profile/postleftwatch. ... uwwwax722o

I just looked him up, and yeah...