Conlang Random Thread

[bradrn]

RIHGI ‘to lose’ (17-stroke character)

the stroke order seems quite random, is there some specific pattern or set of rules?

My thoughts as well. Although some scripts like hanzi do have required stroke orders, they usually follow general patterns like top to bottom and left to right. It seems quite awkward to jump around from one part of the glyph to another adding one line at a time to each section. Imagine what would happen in rapid cursive writing.

I was thinking the same thing. I think part of it comes from the strokes being written top-to-bottom while the character as a whole is written bottom-to-top, but it seems a bit random even beyond that.

[Man in Space]

There is an order. You start at bottom left, go upwards column by column with the bottommost valid stroke being the starting point.

[bradrn]

I see. Nonetheless, it still feels rather unnatural to me.

[Ahzoh]

It depends entirely on the language. I see no problem with having aspirated stops more common than tenuis ones.

I get the feeling that having more aspirated than unaspirated stops by frequency is historically unstable, which doesn't stop languages getting into that position. However, I would expect a slow correction of the distribution. One mechanism, seen in some Southern Thai dialects, is for stops to deaspirate in tones where aspiration has a very low functional load.

The assortment of phonemes in Thai in general is very non-random. The most obvious features are due to the past millennium's sound changes, and I suspect much of the rest goes back to older sound changes and characteristics of donor languages, as in English.

So this phoneme distribution unstable?
[high] n r m s kʰ tʰ l t k ɬ x t͡sʰ p j ʔ t͡ɬʰ w t͡s ħ h pʰ t͡ɬ ŋ f [low]

It is what I simulate might be the frequency of consonants in lexical roots if voiced stops merge with ejectives to become tenuis while the old tenuis/plain become/stay aspirated

[bradrn]

It depends entirely on the language. I see no problem with having aspirated stops more common than tenuis ones.

I get the feeling that having more aspirated than unaspirated stops by frequency is historically unstable, which doesn't stop languages getting into that position. However, I would expect a slow correction of the distribution. One mechanism, seen in some Southern Thai dialects, is for stops to deaspirate in tones where aspiration has a very low functional load.

The assortment of phonemes in Thai in general is very non-random. The most obvious features are due to the past millennium's sound changes, and I suspect much of the rest goes back to older sound changes and characteristics of donor languages, as in English.

So this phoneme distribution unstable?
[high] n r m s kʰ tʰ l t k ɬ x t͡sʰ p j ʔ t͡ɬʰ w t͡s ħ h pʰ t͡ɬ ŋ f [low]

It is what I simulate might be the frequency of consonants in lexical roots if voiced stops merge with ejectives to become tenuis while the old tenuis/plain become/stay aspirated

I see nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

[Richard W]

So this phoneme distribution unstable?
[high] n r m s kʰ tʰ l t k ɬ x t͡sʰ p j ʔ t͡ɬʰ w t͡s ħ h pʰ t͡ɬ ŋ f [low]

It is what I simulate might be the frequency of consonants in lexical roots if voiced stops merge with ejectives to become tenuis while the old tenuis/plain become/stay aspirated

I think so. However, do check what the alleged plain tenuis consonants are - they could actually be ejective or velarised.

Remember that diamonds are unstable at normal temperature and pressure.

[Travis B.]

It depends entirely on the language. I see no problem with having aspirated stops more common than tenuis ones.

I get the feeling that having more aspirated than unaspirated stops by frequency is historically unstable, which doesn't stop languages getting into that position. However, I would expect a slow correction of the distribution. One mechanism, seen in some Southern Thai dialects, is for stops to deaspirate in tones where aspiration has a very low functional load.

The assortment of phonemes in Thai in general is very non-random. The most obvious features are due to the past millennium's sound changes, and I suspect much of the rest goes back to older sound changes and characteristics of donor languages, as in English.

So this phoneme distribution unstable?
[high] n r m s kʰ tʰ l t k ɬ x t͡sʰ p j ʔ t͡ɬʰ w t͡s ħ h pʰ t͡ɬ ŋ f [low]

It is what I simulate might be the frequency of consonants in lexical roots if voiced stops merge with ejectives to become tenuis while the old tenuis/plain become/stay aspirated

Just because something may be theoretically unstable does not mean that it is not metastable, I should note. Seemingly 'unnatural' inventories resulting from a language's history may survive long periods in spite of any purported instability.

[malloc]

Another persistent problem with my minimalist project has been whether the tiny phonology and strict phonotactics can even allow enough roots for the language to work. It really depends on how many roots the language really needs and how fastidiously it keeps roots phonologically distinct. Over the years, I have seen many estimates ranging from the hundred and twenty of Toki Pona to the thousands of characters in Chinese each representing one morpheme.

[/ˌnɐˈɾɛndɚduːd/]

Another persistent problem with my minimalist project has been whether the tiny phonology and strict phonotactics can even allow enough roots for the language to work. It really depends on how many roots the language really needs and how fastidiously it keeps roots phonologically distinct. Over the years, I have seen many estimates ranging from the hundred and twenty of Toki Pona to the thousands of characters in Chinese each representing one morpheme.

the answer to your question lies in what you aim to achieve with your conlang. Toki Pona, for example, was designed to be so minimalistic that thinking outside the box is a prerequisite to speaking it.

[Moose-tache]

Does your conlang have a word that is, approximately, /ni/? If so, what does it mean?

I want your examples of /ni/!

[Richard W]

Seemingly 'unnatural' inventories resulting from a language's history may survive long periods in spite of any purported instability.

Unnatural relative frequencies would be prone to 'correction' by the processes of sporadic sound change and vocabulary change. The Southern Thai example of tone-conditioned deaspiration may be quite rare cross-linguistically. By contrast, idiosyncratic sporadic changes in phonation are not, being especially common amongst velars.

[malloc]

Does your conlang have a word that is, approximately, /ni/? If so, what does it mean?

I want your examples of /ni/!

Third person object pronominal suffix: vaaranime "I see him/her".

[Ahzoh]

Does your conlang have a word that is, approximately, /ni/? If so, what does it mean?

I want your examples of /ni/!

my first person singular possessive suffix is /ni/

[Ares Land]

Does your conlang have a word that is, approximately, /ni/? If so, what does it mean?

I want your examples of /ni/!

Kara'am ṇi /nʔi/, a fly; Arjirets ni /ni/; a biting insect, a mosquito, gadfly or wasp.

[hwhatting]

Tautisca ni clitic form of negation né. Ilan ni "in" plus female form of the article. Mədan ni "in" plus male form of the article.

[bradrn]

Does your conlang have a word that is, approximately, /ni/? If so, what does it mean?

It’s a focus marker and copula — see here.

[malloc]

the answer to your question lies in what you aim to achieve with your conlang. Toki Pona, for example, was designed to be so minimalistic that thinking outside the box is a prerequisite to speaking it.

True enough. Also it really depends on the semantic field and such. Some concepts are easy to break down into roots and derivational morphology while others resist transparent decomposition. It seems easy enough to derive an enormous range of color words from half a dozen roots ("red-blue" for "purple" and "white-red" for pink and so forth). Meanwhile there is no systematic way of deriving words for animals so you need either numerous roots or many opaque compounds (as the thread on naming animals suggests).

[/ˌnɐˈɾɛndɚduːd/]

Does your conlang have a word that is, approximately, /ni/? If so, what does it mean?

I want your examples of /ni/!

in ṅäserrö, ni /ni/ means "small, flat island," while ṅi /ŋi/ is the (polite) third person singular pronoun.

[jal]

Sajiwan doesn't have a /ni/. It should've come from English /ni:/, so "knee", but that's actually fut ben or fut migl.


JAL

[jal]

Meanwhile there is no systematic way of deriving words for animals so you need either numerous roots or many opaque compounds (as the thread on naming animals suggests).

You don't need systematic ways to come up with animal names. You only need descriptions. "Bear" in Germanic languages is derived from "the brown one" (in this case taboo avoidance). A deer could be "hands on its head", a frog "green jumper", a wolf "runs with friends" and so on. Neither needing numerous roots, nor opaque compounds.


JAL