English questions

[bradrn]

In any case, note that ‘the Coalition‘ has an uppercase C; lowercase ‘coalition’ can refer to anything. It’s similar to how people talk about ‘small-l liberals’, as opposed to the Liberal Party (which isn’t).

Thank you! I was thinking of something involving a formal agreement and executive posts for all participating parties, so it wouldn't really be a minority government.

So there might be headlines like "Coalition fights tooth and nail against proposals introduced by coalition"?

Perhaps, but knowing Australia, it would probably get a nickname pretty quickly…

[anteallach]

Suppose that in Australia, there would be an election where the result would be such that the most practical way to form a government would be for the Labor Party to team up with one or more smaller left-wing parties. How would Australians themselves call the result? (Not counting unfriendly words if they're supporters of the other side in politics.) In any other country, something like that would be called a "coalition", but in Australian English that word is apparently already taken as the name of the permanent alliance between the Liberals and the Nationals.

Usually referred to as a ‘minority government’, I think. Unless that only refers to a situation without a formal coalition agreement.

In any case, note that ‘the Coalition‘ has an uppercase C; lowercase ‘coalition’ can refer to anything. It’s similar to how people talk about ‘small-l liberals’, as opposed to the Liberal Party (which isn’t).

To me a minority government is a situation where one party forms the government but has agreements (which might be quite informal) with certain other parties (or perhaps, quite relevantly in Australia, independent MPs) to support some of its agenda and not to bring it down, whereas a coalition is a situation where two (or more) parties form the government together, with ministers from the different parties. From 2010 to 2015 in the UK we had a coalition (and it was called "the Coalition") between the Tories and Lib Dems whereas from 2017 to 2019 we had a Conservative minority government with support from the DUP. The 2010 to 2015 government had Lib Dem ministers, but in the 2017 to 2019 government all the ministers were Tories.

[hwhatting]

And then you can of course have a minority government that is a coalition (a coalition of the parties forming the government, tolerated by some parties outside the government coalition.)

[Travis B.]

In the dialect here there is a very small set of words, particularly astronaut /ˈæʃtʃrəˌnɑt/ [ˈɛɕtɕɹ̠ʁə̃ːˌnaʔ(t)] and cosmonaut /ˈkɑzməˌnɑt/ [ˈkʰaːsmə̃ːˌnaʔ(t)], but also the small town here of Okauchee /oʊˈkɑtʃi/ [o̞ˈkʰatʃi(ː)], where orthographic <au> maps to LOT rather than THOUGHT (and the dialect here has a perfectly good THOUGHT vowel of [ɒ(ː)]). Any thoughts about this?

[Raphael]

What, do you think, would be the best English translation for the German phrase "Eierlegende Wollmilchsau"? You can find a brief overview of what the phrase means and a proposed English translation at https://germanisweird.com/eierlegende-wollmilchsau/

But I think it might be possible to improve on that translation. Should it be "woolly", "woollen", or just "wool"? "milk" or "dairy"? And "pig" or "sow"? Thoughts?

[Travis B.]

What, do you think, would be the best English translation for the German phrase "Eierlegende Wollmilchsau"? You can find a brief overview of what the phrase means and a proposed English translation at https://germanisweird.com/eierlegende-wollmilchsau/

But I think it might be possible to improve on that translation. Should it be "woolly", "woollen", or just "wool"? "milk" or "dairy"? And "pig" or "sow"? Thoughts?

Woolly is correct here, using dairy is consistent with English dairy cattle (not *milk cattle) and I would go with pig over sow myself in that sow is a less common word (unlike with cow, which is far more common than head of cattle even though it is properly strictly female).

[bradrn]

Wiktionary suggests ‘egg-laying wooly milk-pig’, which seems reasonable to me.

[zompist]

What, do you think, would be the best English translation for the German phrase "Eierlegende Wollmilchsau"? You can find a brief overview of what the phrase means and a proposed English translation at https://germanisweird.com/eierlegende-wollmilchsau/

But I think it might be possible to improve on that translation. Should it be "woolly", "woollen", or just "wool"? "milk" or "dairy"? And "pig" or "sow"? Thoughts?

After reading the explanation, I think their "egg-laying, woolly dairy pig" is very good. "Woolen" is used for things made of wool, like sweaters. "Dairy pig" is better at suggesting the impossibility— "milk pig" doesn't work as well since, after all, pigs do produce milk. "Sow" is not really necessary since it's implied by the milk production.

[Raphael]

Thank you, everyone!

[jal]

I don't think "woolly" covers it. "Woolly" doesn't imply "giving wool" but rather "having wool", more akin to German "wollig".


JAL

[Travis B.]

I don't think "woolly" covers it. "Woolly" doesn't imply "giving wool" but rather "having wool", more akin to German "wollig".

It's much closer than woolen, which would indicate that the pig was made of wool.

[jal]

It's much closer than woolen, which would indicate that the pig was made of wool.

Oh, I'm not arguing for "woolen". Just "wool" would be better I think ("wool pig"), although my native language might interfere here.


JAL

[Travis B.]

It's much closer than woolen, which would indicate that the pig was made of wool.

Oh, I'm not arguing for "woolen". Just "wool" would be better I think ("wool pig"), although my native language might interfere here.

"Woolly pig" just sounds better than "wool pig" to me.

[jal]

"Woolly pig" just sounds better than "wool pig" to me.

I agree, it sounds better, but it doesn't convey the meaning of "used to get wool from". And in fact "wool sheep" is the common term for sheep kept for their wool. So in this case, "wool pig" would imho be better.


JAL

[Travis B.]

"Woolly pig" just sounds better than "wool pig" to me.

I agree, it sounds better, but it doesn't convey the meaning of "used to get wool from". And in fact "wool sheep" is the common term for sheep kept for their wool. So in this case, "wool pig" would imho be better.

That's the first time I've seen the term "wool sheep", and I suspect that many educated native English-speakers not familiar with the details of raising livestock are not familiar with the term either, whereas any educated modern native English-speaker should know of the "woolly mammoth".

[jal]

That's the first time I've seen the term "wool sheep", and I suspect that many educated native English-speakers not familiar with the details of raising livestock are not familiar with the term either, whereas any educated modern native English-speaker should know of the "woolly mammoth".

Which wasn't a mammoth used for its wool. I mean, woolly pigs even exists, and they're not kept for wool.


JAL

[Lērisama]

That's the first time I've seen the term "wool sheep", and I suspect that many educated native English-speakers not familiar with the details of raising livestock are not familiar with the term either, whereas any educated modern native English-speaker should know of the "woolly mammoth".

Which wasn't a mammoth used for its wool. I mean, woolly pigs even exists, and they're not kept for wool.

Yes but ‘Wool X’ isn't productive and feels weird outside ‘wool sheep,’¹ but ‘wooly X’ is clear and makes sense in the context.

¹ And honestly a little weird in ‘wool sheep.’

[jal]

Yes but ‘Wool X’ isn't productive and feels weird outside ‘wool sheep,’¹ but ‘wooly X’ is clear and makes sense in the context.

I'm arguing it doesn't make the sense you need. Note we're still discussing a translation of a German phrase, and "woolly" (German "wollig") conveys a different meaning than "wool" (German "woll") as an adjective. "wollmilchsau" litteraly means "wool milk sow", so a sow that provides milk and wool. Not a sow that happens to be woolly (which do exist, as I've shown).


JAL

[Travis B.]

Yes but ‘Wool X’ isn't productive and feels weird outside ‘wool sheep,’¹ but ‘wooly X’ is clear and makes sense in the context.

I'm arguing it doesn't make the sense you need. Note we're still discussing a translation of a German phrase, and "woolly" (German "wollig") conveys a different meaning than "wool" (German "woll") as an adjective. "wollmilchsau" litteraly means "wool milk sow", so a sow that provides milk and wool. Not a sow that happens to be woolly (which do exist, as I've shown).

But English is not German, and just because German Woll- is used this way does not mean the use of English wool in the same way is productive, even if the term wool sheep does happen to exist. Woolly just happens to be the most natural form to use here in English per actual native English-speakers (which I presume myself, zompist, and Lērisama are), and attempting to represent a distinction German makes between Woll- and wollig in English is artificially forcing English to make a distinction it does not naturally make.

[Lērisama]

Yes but ‘Wool X’ isn't productive and feels weird outside ‘wool sheep,’¹ but ‘wooly X’ is clear and makes sense in the context.

I'm arguing it doesn't make the sense you need. Note we're still discussing a translation of a German phrase, and "woolly" (German "wollig") conveys a different meaning than "wool" (German "woll") as an adjective. "wollmilchsau" litteraly means "wool milk sow", so a sow that provides milk and wool. Not a sow that happens to be woolly (which do exist, as I've shown).

I'm arguing, as a native English speaker who does actually speak enough German to understand the German distinction, that it does have that sense, because English just does not make that distinction in that context. I can't claim any other authority except the agreement of other native English speakers, at least one also having some German, but please know I'm not missing some crucial distinction, but actively deciding that it is not something you would make in English.