United States Politics Thread 47

[malloc]

You're just going through rhetorical contortions because you can't see that your unfounded misconceptions may happen to be wrong. Where is there any evidence for what you just said there? Please ─ show us ─ rather than repeating your own baseless presuppositions as you do time and time again.

One example of how far right zoomers have become.

Have you been paying attention to anything rotting bones has posted here? West Bengal is a place that at one time regularly elected real live Communists with a big C, which you'd know if you'd've paid attention.

Sure but the conservatives of West Bengal are devout Muslims with all the social conservatism that implies. Western liberals certainly aren't trying to implement misogynistic and homophobic religious law.

[rotting bones]

Sure but the conservatives of West Bengal are devout Muslims with all the social conservatism that implies. Western liberals certainly aren't trying to implement misogynistic and homophobic religious law.

Muslims are a minority in West Bengal.

In West Bengal, far leftists were open Maoists. This included writers and academics, not just Santals fighting to protect their land. The center was democratic Marxists. The right used to be upholders of Bengal's liberal artistic heritage represented by people like Tagore. Reactionaries had no power.

In my childhood, it was normal and expected that Bengali politicians would be irreligious, an inconceivable state of affairs in America. Bengal's culture reflected this situation. The children's action hero Kakababu is an open atheist. Even religious characters exposed superstition and hypocrisy, like in the Feluda movie in the Bengali thread.

How times have changed. The old right is now in power. Their main competitors are the fascists. The irony I'm not sure liberals are intellectually equipped to appreciate is that movements to resurrect Bengal's ancient traditions are imported from abroad. Foreigners want ancient traditions to prevail because idpol will divide us amongst ourselves, leaving us open to capitalist exploitation. Bengalis are fighting to free ourselves from the foreign imposition of ancient Bengali traditions.

It's because 21st century intellectuals don't understand facts like this that I believe they are insane.

As for Western liberals, for decades they tried to promote a way of life centered around hiding your head under the sand and hoping the monsters would disappear with the inevitable progress of history. This is why their complaints about Marxists deferring progress to the revolution sounded like projection to me. IME the energy of liberals has been to conserve rather than getting ahead of the times.

[zompist]

One example of how far right zoomers have become.

Though it's good that you provided a source for once, you don't seem to have read it very carefully. It doesn't show "how far right zoomers have become"; it shows that 31% of Gen Z males have (repugnant!) misogynistic views. The number is 18% for females, thus, 25% of all Gen Z.

It should be far less surprising given that about 23% of adult Americans identify as Evangelical. And that 40% still approve of Trump!

A single poll also can't tell you if Gen Z males are more misogynistic than Gen Y ones were at that age, or if increasing age makes men less misogynistic. Note that Gen Z'ers are presently 29 or less, meaning most of them have never been married and are still highly influenced by their parents.

[malloc]

Though it's good that you provided a source for once, you don't seem to have read it very carefully. It doesn't show "how far right zoomers have become"; it shows that 31% of Gen Z males have (repugnant!) misogynistic views. The number is 18% for females, thus, 25% of all Gen Z.

It clearly does, though, given that boomers are considerably more progressive on women's rights than zoomers. Considering that boomers were previously the gold standard for regressive politics, that is quite a remarkable revelation. Certainly one can imagine interpretations of this study that mitigate its alarming conclusions. Nonetheless the most parsimonious interpretation is that zoomers have swung far to the right on gender issues such that even people who used to laugh at Jackie Gleeson punching his wife in the kisser seem progressive in comparison. Unless you have some compelling evidence against that interpretation, I see no choice but accept it as the most likely and base my predictions and recommendations on it.

[zompist]

Nonetheless the most parsimonious interpretation is that zoomers have swung far to the right on gender issues such that even people who used to laugh at Jackie Gleeson punching his wife in the kisser seem progressive in comparison. Unless you have some compelling evidence against that interpretation, I see no choice but accept it as the most likely and base my predictions and recommendations on it.

You already refuted your own position. In the 1950s it was humorous when Jackie Gleason threatened to punch his wife. (He didn't actually do it.) Marital rape was legal in all states until 1974. Women had to get their husband's approval to get a loan until the same year. Employment discrimination was widespread and legal until the 1960s. Women could be kept off juries till 1975, could have stricter drinking laws applied to them until 1976, were subject in some states to the husband's control of all property until 1981. The MeToo movement against sexual harrassment started in 2006.

I'm sorry you're ignorant of all this.

[Travis B.]

Nonetheless the most parsimonious interpretation is that zoomers have swung far to the right on gender issues such that even people who used to laugh at Jackie Gleeson punching his wife in the kisser seem progressive in comparison. Unless you have some compelling evidence against that interpretation, I see no choice but accept it as the most likely and base my predictions and recommendations on it.

You already refuted your own position. In the 1950s it was humorous when Jackie Gleason threatened to punch his wife. (He didn't actually do it.) Marital rape was legal in all states until 1974. Women had to get their husband's approval to get a loan until the same year. Employment discrimination was widespread and legal until the 1960s. Women could be kept off juries till 1975, could have stricter drinking laws applied to them until 1976, were subject in some states to the husband's control of all property until 1981. The MeToo movement against sexual harrassment started in 2006.

I'm sorry you're ignorant of all this.

malloc's just grasping at straws for anything to maintain his worldview.

[malloc]

You already refuted your own position. In the 1950s it was humorous when Jackie Gleason threatened to punch his wife. (He didn't actually do it.) Marital rape was legal in all states until 1974. Women had to get their husband's approval to get a loan until the same year. Employment discrimination was widespread and legal until the 1960s. Women could be kept off juries till 1975, could have stricter drinking laws applied to them until 1976, were subject in some states to the husband's control of all property until 1981. The MeToo movement against sexual harrassment started in 2006.

It was Boomer politicians who repealed those sexist laws, mind you. Furthermore, nothing you have said actually refutes the massive survey I cited. The most parsimonious interpretation is that zoomers are more right wing than older generations. Any alternative interpretation requires compelling evidence against that conclusion, perhaps glaring flaws with the survey. Otherwise it makes no sense to dismiss election results and polls all pointing to zoomers shifting to the right.

[Travis B.]

You already refuted your own position. In the 1950s it was humorous when Jackie Gleason threatened to punch his wife. (He didn't actually do it.) Marital rape was legal in all states until 1974. Women had to get their husband's approval to get a loan until the same year. Employment discrimination was widespread and legal until the 1960s. Women could be kept off juries till 1975, could have stricter drinking laws applied to them until 1976, were subject in some states to the husband's control of all property until 1981. The MeToo movement against sexual harrassment started in 2006.

It was Boomer politicians who repealed those sexist laws, mind you. Furthermore, nothing you have said actually refutes the massive survey I cited. The most parsimonious interpretation is that zoomers are more right wing than older generations. Any alternative interpretation requires compelling evidence against that conclusion, perhaps glaring flaws with the survey. Otherwise it makes no sense to dismiss election results and polls all pointing to zoomers shifting to the right.

For starters, it was a global survey (for more details that flesh out what the survey actually found, take for instance this Guardian article), with traditionalist views being most prevalent in places like Indonesia and Malaysia, which are not exactly models for liberalism in this kind of department in the first place. Of the statistic that you seem to be citing, the actual value given for the US was 23%, which while disappointing, still does not support your position that "zomg zoomers overwhelmingly support the right" (as, of course, it means that 77% of zoomers in the US don't support this position polled for).

[Travis B.]

It should also be noted that this was a survey and not a proper study, so it should be taken with at least some salt.

[alice]

OK, malloc, let's try again. If the results of the next major election (i.e. the next election where the results genuinely matter) in the USA show that "zoomers" and other Young Persons generally have decisively rejected right-wing politics, how will you react? You are not allowed to say "ah, but it's just a blip, they really did want to vote that way, but they didn't for some reason only I am able to understand", or anything like it.

(Sidenote: nobody got the Monty Python reference in my last post?)

[rotting bones]

If you want a real problem to lose sleep over, a rightward swing does seem to take place among populations that are not inoculated against propaganda and fancy themselves free thinkers: https://www.nytimes.com/2026/03/31/opin ... roid-share

Unlike the centrist writer of this article, I think the reason this happens in the first place is that politicians don't address the problems people actually face like Mamdani did. Most are merchants of bullshit who try to distract voters. This interpretation is compatible with what the article itself says the core issue is:

The issue, Kessler continued, is that voters

believe our priorities are out of place and that issues like the economy, costs, border security and crime are secondary to Democrats. And finally, we have been unforgiving toward Democrats who hold views that challenge progressive orthodoxies from culture issues to climate to the economy.

Voters like Trump because he appears authentic. Trying to meet people where they are at is the opposite of authenticity. A real leader gets ahead of the times by showing the masses a future they have been too distracted from realizing they want because of all the propaganda.

[malloc]

For starters, it was a global survey (for more details that flesh out what the survey actually found, take for instance this Guardian article), with traditionalist views being most prevalent in places like Indonesia and Malaysia, which are not exactly models for liberalism in this kind of department in the first place. Of the statistic that you seem to be citing, the actual value given for the US was 23%, which while disappointing, still does not support your position that "zomg zoomers overwhelmingly support the right" (as, of course, it means that 77% of zoomers in the US don't support this position polled for).

The most striking point is not the specific percentage but the fact that zoomers are more conservative than older voters. That really should alarm you because it means the electorate in general is shifting rightward as conservative zoomers replace more liberal older people over time.

[rotting bones]

The most striking point is not the specific percentage but the fact that zoomers are more conservative than older voters. That really should alarm you because it means the electorate in general is shifting rightward as conservative zoomers replace more liberal older people over time.

Opinions that are based on bullshit oscillate back and forth. Each generation rebels against its parents.

[bradrn]

malloc: what, precisely, would you expect us to do in response to this supposedly unstoppable right-wing shift? Roll over and just give in?

(For my part, the young people my age who I know all seem rather left-wing, on the whole.)

[rotting bones]

(For my part, the young people my age who I know all seem rather left-wing, on the whole.)

Socialism is more popular than ever before in recent times in first world countries.

[Travis B.]

The most striking point is not the specific percentage but the fact that zoomers are more conservative than older voters. That really should alarm you because it means the electorate in general is shifting rightward as conservative zoomers replace more liberal older people over time.

Opinions that are based on bullshit oscillate back and forth. Each generation rebels against its parents.

I wonder how malloc wraps his brain around that the popularity of capitalism has been slipping and that, amongst Democrats, socialism is now more popular than capitalism by a significant margin.

[rotting bones]

I wonder how malloc wraps his brain around that the popularity of capitalism has been slipping and that, amongst Democrats, socialism is now more popular than capitalism by a significant margin.

Centrists worry this polarization will end up helping Republicans.

[Travis B.]

(For my part, the young people my age who I know all seem rather left-wing, on the whole.)

Socialism is more popular than ever before in recent times in first world countries.

You said that right while I was composing my post to the same effect.

[zompist]

The most striking point is not the specific percentage but the fact that zoomers are more conservative than older voters. That really should alarm you because it means the electorate in general is shifting rightward as conservative zoomers replace more liberal older people over time.

THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN. You are making shit up, and denying reality in the face of overwhelming evidence.

First, here are political leanings by generation. (Leaving out moderates; do the math.)

Silent: cons 48%, lib 22%
Boomers: cons 40%, lib 24%
Gen X: cons 36%, lib 25%
Millennials: cons 26%, lib 37%
Gen Z: cons 27%, lib 36%

Older generations are MORE CONSERVATIVE.

Second, as for misogyny, it was not fought by "Boomer politicians". It was a struggle by activists, fighting the majority at every point; in the 1970s and far longer "feminist" was a dirty word. Those activists generally weren't boomers themselves— e.g. Gloria Steinem was Silent; Bella Abzug, Shirley Chisholm, and Betty Friedan were Greatest.

You have some strange idea that there was some golden era when there was no right wing, everyone was liberal, and victories magically appeared without a fight. I've said many time that the liberal era worked better than the plutocratic one, but every damn liberal victory required a long damn fight not only with conservatives but with centrists, who always thought that treating women, blacks, gays, etc. as human beings was going too far and too fast. Progressives have always felt, from the time there were progressives, that times were dire. The fight was always overwhelming. Some people did it anyway, and to them we owe any advances we have.

In particular, you don't get that what are now far-right ideas were once mainstream. You think you're smart because you read a survey, but not only did I provide evidence, I was there. Racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. were everyday, majority opinions. Read a book on the Civil Rights movement someday, by a black person. News flash: almost all whites were racist. Northern racism and segregation were actually harder to fight than southern.

As just one more data point, Nixon's popular vote percentage in 1972 was 61%. Trump's was 49.8%. There are a lot of nuances I've explained elsewhere, but the raw fact is that the right and center-right were the overwhelming majority in the 1970s and they've been losing ground ever since. That is why they are so angry and desperate. If they actually had a safe majority, they wouldn't have to try to mess with elections.

Because I and others keep swatting down your misconceptions, you probably think we're "not worried" or something. No, you dweeb, it is not that you see a problem no one else sees. We all see the problem. You just insist on decorating it with falsehoods and doomerism.

[malloc]

Older generations are MORE CONSERVATIVE.

Then what about the survey showing that zoomers hold considerably more conservative views on gender? Are older generations simply lying and hiding equally or even more regressive view? Are the zoomers regressive on gender but more progressive otherwise?

malloc: what, precisely, would you expect us to do in response to this supposedly unstoppable right-wing shift? Roll over and just give in?

Well no, but the first step to addressing this problem is recognizing its existence. Nobody else here even heard about zoomers backsliding on women's rights until I mentioned it.