Instinctive reactions to orthography
Instinctive reactions to orthography
A little thought which came to me, as thoughts tend to do: There are 20 possible digraphs of the 5 vowel letters where both letters are different. If you were told that each represents a single pure vowel phoneme (i.e. not a diphthong), what would seem to be to you the most natural interpretation of each? As an example, I associate <ae> with /æ/, although I suspect this is not unusual.
mais grand il tour, mais rapid e fort e spes caze la merda
Re: Instinctive reactions to orthography
⟨ae⟩: /æ/
⟨ea⟩: /ɛ/
⟨ei⟩: /e/
⟨ie⟩: /i/
⟨ao⟩: /ɒ/
⟨oa⟩: /ɔ/
⟨ou⟩: /o/
⟨uo⟩: /o/
⟨ai⟩: /ɛ/
⟨ia⟩: /e/
⟨au⟩: /ɔ/
⟨ua⟩: /o/
⟨iu⟩: /ɨ/
⟨ui⟩: /y/
⟨eu⟩: /ø/
⟨ue⟩: /y/
⟨io⟩: /ø/
⟨oi⟩: /ø/
⟨eo⟩: /ø/
⟨oe⟩: /ø/
Edit: revised my assessment of ⟨ie⟩ and ⟨uo⟩.
⟨ea⟩: /ɛ/
⟨ei⟩: /e/
⟨ie⟩: /i/
⟨ao⟩: /ɒ/
⟨oa⟩: /ɔ/
⟨ou⟩: /o/
⟨uo⟩: /o/
⟨ai⟩: /ɛ/
⟨ia⟩: /e/
⟨au⟩: /ɔ/
⟨ua⟩: /o/
⟨iu⟩: /ɨ/
⟨ui⟩: /y/
⟨eu⟩: /ø/
⟨ue⟩: /y/
⟨io⟩: /ø/
⟨oi⟩: /ø/
⟨eo⟩: /ø/
⟨oe⟩: /ø/
Edit: revised my assessment of ⟨ie⟩ and ⟨uo⟩.
Last edited by Travis B. on Sat Nov 08, 2025 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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zompist
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Re: Instinctive reactions to orthography
I think it's kind of amusing that every one of these can appear in English spelling.
⟨ae⟩: fae /e/
⟨ea⟩: beat /i/
⟨ei⟩: freight /e/
⟨ie⟩: pie /aj/
⟨ao⟩: chaos /ejo/
⟨oa⟩: boat /o/
⟨ou⟩: loud /aw/
⟨uo⟩: fluoride /o/
⟨ai⟩: pain /e/
⟨ia⟩: anemia /iə/
⟨au⟩: applaud /ɔ/
⟨ua⟩: usual /uwə/
⟨iu⟩: opium /ijə/
⟨ui⟩: suit /u/, but build /ɪ/
⟨eu⟩: neuter /ju/
⟨ue⟩: flue /u/
⟨io⟩: lion /ajo/
⟨oi⟩: loin /oj/
⟨eo⟩: Leo /ijo/
⟨oe⟩: foe /o/
(And yes, lots of these are diphthongs or mere juxtapositions of vowels.)
⟨ae⟩: fae /e/
⟨ea⟩: beat /i/
⟨ei⟩: freight /e/
⟨ie⟩: pie /aj/
⟨ao⟩: chaos /ejo/
⟨oa⟩: boat /o/
⟨ou⟩: loud /aw/
⟨uo⟩: fluoride /o/
⟨ai⟩: pain /e/
⟨ia⟩: anemia /iə/
⟨au⟩: applaud /ɔ/
⟨ua⟩: usual /uwə/
⟨iu⟩: opium /ijə/
⟨ui⟩: suit /u/, but build /ɪ/
⟨eu⟩: neuter /ju/
⟨ue⟩: flue /u/
⟨io⟩: lion /ajo/
⟨oi⟩: loin /oj/
⟨eo⟩: Leo /ijo/
⟨oe⟩: foe /o/
(And yes, lots of these are diphthongs or mere juxtapositions of vowels.)
Re: Instinctive reactions to orthography
<ui> has a good number of realisations in English
PRICE as in <guide>
KIT as in <guilt>
GOOSE as in <juice>
probably /j/ + GOOSE in <suit> for some people
j + GOOSE + KIT as in <intuition>
j + GOOSE + schwa as in <intuit>
GOOSE + schwa as in <ruin>
GOOSE + happY as in <tui>
(j) + GOOSE + PRICE as in <toluide>
w + PRICE as in <quite>
w + FLEECE as in <suite>
w + KIT as in <quick>
w + schwa as in <sanguine>
schwa as in <daquiri>
w + first half of NURSE as in <quirk>
PRICE as in <guide>
KIT as in <guilt>
GOOSE as in <juice>
probably /j/ + GOOSE in <suit> for some people
j + GOOSE + KIT as in <intuition>
j + GOOSE + schwa as in <intuit>
GOOSE + schwa as in <ruin>
GOOSE + happY as in <tui>
(j) + GOOSE + PRICE as in <toluide>
w + PRICE as in <quite>
w + FLEECE as in <suite>
w + KIT as in <quick>
w + schwa as in <sanguine>
schwa as in <daquiri>
w + first half of NURSE as in <quirk>
Re: Instinctive reactions to orthography
These lack yods or yod-coalescence in NAE.
This has a yod for me.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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Nortaneous
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Re: Instinctive reactions to orthography
Completing the set of monosyllabic values:
⟨ao⟩: dao /aw/ (+ gaol?)
⟨ia⟩: Asia /ə/ (+ piano for some speakers, but I assume this is an affectation)
⟨ua⟩: guava /wa/ (+ quart, quark etc.)
⟨iu⟩: prosciutto, jiujitsu /uw/
⟨io⟩: lion /ajo/ (+ fiord, -tion)
⟨eo⟩: George /o/
Last edited by Nortaneous on Mon Nov 10, 2025 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Duaj teibohnggoe kyoe' quaqtoeq lucj lhaj k'yoejdej noeyn tucj.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
Re: Instinctive reactions to orthography
gaol and anemia are both bisyllabic for me. ciabatta works though.
Re: Instinctive reactions to orthography
⟨ae⟩: /æ/
⟨ea⟩: /e/, /ɑ/
⟨ei⟩: /i/, /e/
⟨ie⟩: /i/
⟨ao⟩: /ɒ/
⟨oa⟩: /o/
⟨ou⟩: /u/, /o/
⟨uo⟩: /o/
⟨ai⟩: /e/
⟨ia⟩: /e/
⟨au⟩: /o/
⟨ua⟩: /ɑ/
⟨iu⟩: /y/
⟨ui⟩: /y/
⟨eu⟩: /ɯ/, /u/
⟨ue⟩: /y/
⟨io⟩: /ø/
⟨oi⟩: /ø/
⟨eo⟩: /ɤ/, /o/
⟨oe⟩: /ø/
⟨ea⟩: /e/, /ɑ/
⟨ei⟩: /i/, /e/
⟨ie⟩: /i/
⟨ao⟩: /ɒ/
⟨oa⟩: /o/
⟨ou⟩: /u/, /o/
⟨uo⟩: /o/
⟨ai⟩: /e/
⟨ia⟩: /e/
⟨au⟩: /o/
⟨ua⟩: /ɑ/
⟨iu⟩: /y/
⟨ui⟩: /y/
⟨eu⟩: /ɯ/, /u/
⟨ue⟩: /y/
⟨io⟩: /ø/
⟨oi⟩: /ø/
⟨eo⟩: /ɤ/, /o/
⟨oe⟩: /ø/
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Nortaneous
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Re: Instinctive reactions to orthography
missed anemia, fixed. ideally there'd be a non-schwa value that works without silly affectations or proper-noun recent loans (Chiang?)
Duaj teibohnggoe kyoe' quaqtoeq lucj lhaj k'yoejdej noeyn tucj.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
Re: Instinctive reactions to orthography
Pennsylvania and California.Nortaneous wrote: ↑Mon Nov 10, 2025 1:26 pmmissed anemia, fixed. ideally there'd be a non-schwa value that works without silly affectations or proper-noun recent loans (Chiang?)
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Re: Instinctive reactions to orthography
[ˌpʰensəɫˈvɐɪ̯nəjə], [kʰæɫəˈfʊːnəjə]Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Nov 10, 2025 2:31 pmPennsylvania and California.Nortaneous wrote: ↑Mon Nov 10, 2025 1:26 pmmissed anemia, fixed. ideally there'd be a non-schwa value that works without silly affectations or proper-noun recent loans (Chiang?)
Re: Instinctive reactions to orthography
/ˌpɛnsəlˈveɪnjə/ [ˌpʰɜ̃ntsɯːˈvẽ̞ːnjə(ː)], /ˌkæləˈfɔrnjə/ [ˌkʰɛːɤ̯əˈfɔ̃ːʁ̃ˤnjə(ː)]Darren wrote: ↑Mon Nov 10, 2025 2:47 pm[ˌpʰensəɫˈvɐɪ̯nəjə], [kʰæɫəˈfʊːnəjə]Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Nov 10, 2025 2:31 pmPennsylvania and California.Nortaneous wrote: ↑Mon Nov 10, 2025 1:26 pm
missed anemia, fixed. ideally there'd be a non-schwa value that works without silly affectations or proper-noun recent loans (Chiang?)
Really, I've never heard anyone pronounce either of these words as ending in anything other than /njə/.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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/ˌnɐˈɾɛndɚduːd/
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Re: Instinctive reactions to orthography
[ˌpʰɛ̃nt͡sl̴̩ˈvẽɪ̯̃njə] and [ˌkʰæl̴ɪˈfɔ̃ɹ̃njə], personally, although I have heard a ...[nĭjə] ending for both.
also known as, 'notenderdude' or any variation thereof.
terminally in search of who asked.
terminally in search of who asked.
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zompist
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Re: Instinctive reactions to orthography
From a conlanging perspective, you could treat the second vowel as a diacritic:
i to front
u to back
a to lower and unround
o to lower and round
e to center
Maybe add ia for /ɪ/ and ua for /ʊ/.
It gets dicey on the last row, I know.
i to front
u to back
a to lower and unround
o to lower and round
e to center
| cell | front unr. | front rnd. | mid | back unr. | back rnd. |
| high | i | ui | ie | iu | u |
| closed | e | oi | ee | eu | o |
| open | ea | eo | ae | oa | oo |
| low | ai | ao | a | aa | au |
It gets dicey on the last row, I know.
Re: Instinctive reactions to orthography
My reading of the rubric takes me that way. I'm still working on the challenge. The system (or subsystem) described represents 20 pure vowels, using symbols composed of one or two vowels, but with no double letters.
I feel the absence of 'aa' is unnatural. (English should naturally be one's first choice of counter-examples for proposed universals.)
However, your solution has not only <aa>, but also <ee> and <oo>. You're lacking interpretations for <ai>, <ei>, <io>, <oe>, <ou>, <ue> and <uo>.
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Re: Instinctive reactions to orthography
That's an interesting and ingenious way of spelling vowels. Thank you!zompist wrote: ↑Mon Nov 10, 2025 4:56 pm From a conlanging perspective, you could treat the second vowel as a diacritic:
i to front
u to back
a to lower and unround
o to lower and round
e to center
Maybe add ia for /ɪ/ and ua for /ʊ/.
cell front unr. front rnd. mid back unr. back rnd. high i ui ie iu u closed e oi ee eu o open ea eo ae oa oo low ai ao a aa au
It gets dicey on the last row, I know.