[Conworld] Norse in Hokkaido - culture and linguistics

[Otto Kretschmer]

This is my offshot of a discussion started on Altenate History Forum.

Someone had an idea of putting the whole population of Denmark and Norway of 793 AD to Hokkaido in 793 AD.I think - great one.Obviously the Norse dominate Hokkaido and possibly some areas of mainland Japan. Given their naval prowness they should come into contact with China no later than 15-20 years afterwards.

I started wondering - what might Middle Chinese words look like phonetically when borrowed into Old Norse? We saw Middle Chinese /hɑnH d͡zɨH/ evolving into Japanese Kanji and Korean Hanja as an example.

Would the Norse borrow Chinese characters or stick to Futhark?

[Zju]

What I'm interested in is this: Since the Norse gave Iceland and Greenland their names, and named NA Vinland (wineland) during their brief stay there, what kind of land is Hokkaido going to be?

[Otto Kretschmer]

What I'm interested in is this: Since the Norse gave Iceland and Greenland their names, and named NA Vinland (wineland) during their brief stay there, what kind of land is Hokkaido going to be?

It may be Greenland too since Hokkaido IS green. It may also be
- woodland (since Hokkaido is covered in forest)
- Rainland (it rains more in Hokkaido than Europe)
- Hillland or Mountainland (due to mountaineous terrain)
- Nordland (since it's to the north of Japan, Korea and China)

[Qwynegold]

How would they end up in Hokkaidō?

[Travis B.]

How would they end up in Hokkaidō?

Teleportation, obviously.

[dɮ the phoneme]

How would they end up in Hokkaidō?

Teleportation, obviously.

Or the Northwest Passage, if the maximum disbelief you're willing to suspend is very moderately lower.

[Rounin Ryuuji]

It might bear considering the scale. It is easy to overestimate the size of countries in Europe (which are smaller than they appear), and also to underestimate the size of the Japanese archipelago. We should probably not here that Honshū alone is somewhat larger than Great Britain, and Hokkaidō is nearly twice the size of Denmark. It is also where I understand modern-day Japan does most of its agriculture. Given that the population transplanted will presumably not exceed a million humans, you could probably support them on Hokkaidō alone. The Japanese Archipelago is minerally-poor, but rich in things like fish, salt, and other maritime things.

Presumably, the Norse settlers will know how to fish, but, when you're in a new country, learning agriculture will be a bit trickier. They would presumably need the assistance of either the Japanese, the Ainu, or both, and end up picking up quite a number of loanwords for unfamiliar plants or other concepts from them. Assuming they're teleported there to start from zero, they aren't going to have the material to conquer any part of the archipelago, and if they've come by normal means, they would probably be too exhausted from the trip to be doing any conquering just yet. I don't really see it as a probable Norse conquest at all. According to Google, the population of the Japanese archipelago at the time was probably four or five times that of Scandinavia. I also don't know why they would want the archipelago. They would presumably be comfortable enough in Hokkaidō once they'd figured it out. The Japanese Archipelago is mineral-poor and earthquake-prone, and Romantisme won't have been invented yet. Given the difference in population, knowledge of the region, and so on, I expect they would be absorbed into Japanese civilisation. This would cause the analogue-to-modern-day Japanese to have a much different genetic profile, and probably to tend to be physically larger, with European features cropping up rather a lot, and likely a number of Norse loanwords entering the language, probably with some loan-phonemes; I might expect a Norse-influenced Japanese to sound rather French after a few centuries. Some Norse motifs would probably enter Japanese art, the Heian court would probably find the Norse intriguing and make up all sorts of fanciful stories about them. The warriors would probably get absorbed into the Samurai class or work as mercenaries, and so on and so on. It would be interesting, but I don't think a Norse state would necessarily emerge, nor that they would have been the most noteworthy players on the Archipelago if there were. There's a lot of room for interesting storytelling here, though.

[Otto Kretschmer]

It might bear considering the scale. It is easy to overestimate the size of countries in Europe (which are smaller than they appear), and also to underestimate the size of the Japanese archipelago. We should probably not here that Honshū alone is somewhat larger than Great Britain, and Hokkaidō is nearly twice the size of Denmark. It is also where I understand modern-day Japan does most of its agriculture. Given that the population transplanted will presumably not exceed a million humans, you could probably support them on Hokkaidō alone. The Japanese Archipelago is minerally-poor, but rich in things like fish, salt, and other maritime things.

Presumably, the Norse settlers will know how to fish, but, when you're in a new country, learning agriculture will be a bit trickier. They would presumably need the assistance of either the Japanese, the Ainu, or both, and end up picking up quite a number of loanwords for unfamiliar plants or other concepts from them. Assuming they're teleported there to start from zero, they aren't going to have the material to conquer any part of the archipelago, and if they've come by normal means, they would probably be too exhausted from the trip to be doing any conquering just yet. I don't really see it as a probable Norse conquest at all. According to Google, the population of the Japanese archipelago at the time was probably four or five times that of Scandinavia. I also don't know why they would want the archipelago. They would presumably be comfortable enough in Hokkaidō once they'd figured it out. The Japanese Archipelago is mineral-poor and earthquake-prone, and Romantisme won't have been invented yet. Given the difference in population, knowledge of the region, and so on, I expect they would be absorbed into Japanese civilisation. This would cause the analogue-to-modern-day Japanese to have a much different genetic profile, and probably to tend to be physically larger, with European features cropping up rather a lot, and likely a number of Norse loanwords entering the language, probably with some loan-phonemes; I might expect a Norse-influenced Japanese to sound rather French after a few centuries. Some Norse motifs would probably enter Japanese art, the Heian court would probably find the Norse intriguing and make up all sorts of fanciful stories about them. The warriors would probably get absorbed into the Samurai class or work as mercenaries, and so on and so on. It would be interesting, but I don't think a Norse state would necessarily emerge, nor that they would have been the most noteworthy players on the Archipelago if there were. There's a lot of room for interesting storytelling here, though.

The Japaneee did not create first settlements on Hokkaido until 1100s or 1200s even.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/ ... -d.516241/

What if the population of Denmark and Norway in 793 was ISOT in Hokkaido?
I am not an expert in geographical or anthropological matters, but it would be interesting the cultural influence that the Nordics could have towards the Ainu and Japanese and vice versa. But of course, for that they have to survive, so I sent them with their important infrastructure and equipment, otherwise I think they should survive by themselves. But if they like it, they can give them other changes. Anyway, what do you think could happen? Will they live or die? Or will they leave their Nordic footprint in Japan?

[Zju]

How would they end up in Hokkaidō?

Teleportation, obviously.

Or the Northwest Passage, if the maximum disbelief you're willing to suspend is very moderately lower.

Viking colonisation of Greenland happened 2 centuries after the setting in this conworld, so you'd also have to shift the timeline some either way.

[Rounin Ryuuji]

What if the population of Denmark and Norway in 793 was ISOT in Hokkaido?
I am not an expert in geographical or anthropological matters, but it would be interesting the cultural influence that the Nordics could have towards the Ainu and Japanese and vice versa. But of course, for that they have to survive, so I sent them with their important infrastructure and equipment, otherwise I think they should survive by themselves. But if they like it, they can give them other changes. Anyway, what do you think could happen? Will they live or die? Or will they leave their Nordic footprint in Japan?

That's a lot of disbelief to suspend.

[Otto Kretschmer]

What if the population of Denmark and Norway in 793 was ISOT in Hokkaido?
I am not an expert in geographical or anthropological matters, but it would be interesting the cultural influence that the Nordics could have towards the Ainu and Japanese and vice versa. But of course, for that they have to survive, so I sent them with their important infrastructure and equipment, otherwise I think they should survive by themselves. But if they like it, they can give them other changes. Anyway, what do you think could happen? Will they live or die? Or will they leave their Nordic footprint in Japan?

That's a lot of disbelief to suspend.

This is an Alternate History forum. The thread is in a subforum dedicated to scenarios requiring magic or other supernatural events

[Travis B.]

Somehow I'd think that a scenario involving ancient astronauts visiting Hokkaido would be more plausible...

[Travis B.]

This is an Alternate History forum. The thread is in a subforum dedicated to scenarios requiring magic or other supernatural events

Thing is, alternate history normally involves things that could have gone a different way if events in real history had turned out a different way in a plausible fashion, e.g. if Roman rule extends farther north into Germania (e.g. the Romans are not defeated at Teutoburger Wald) and Romance survives there to the present, with a Germanic substratum.

[Otto Kretschmer]

This is an Alternate History forum. The thread is in a subforum dedicated to scenarios requiring magic or other supernatural events

Thing is, alternate history normally involves things that could have gone a different way if events in real history had turned out a different way in a plausible fashion, e.g. if Roman rule extends farther north into Germania (e.g. the Romans are not defeated at Teutoburger Wald) and Romance survives there to the present, with a Germanic substratum.

Look yourself The subforum is called "Alien Space Bats and Other Magic", third most popular subforum after "Alternate History Before 1900" and "Alternate History Post 1900"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_space_bats

[Rounin Ryuuji]

I suppose that, when writing fiction (other than plopping in what look suspiciously like Earth languages handwaved away by convergent evolution, of course), I tend to like a bit more internal plausibility.

[Travis B.]

This is an Alternate History forum. The thread is in a subforum dedicated to scenarios requiring magic or other supernatural events

Thing is, alternate history normally involves things that could have gone a different way if events in real history had turned out a different way in a plausible fashion, e.g. if Roman rule extends farther north into Germania (e.g. the Romans are not defeated at Teutoburger Wald) and Romance survives there to the present, with a Germanic substratum.

Look yourself The subforum is called "Alien Space Bats and Other Magic", third most popular subforum after "Alternate History Before 1900" and "Alternate History Post 1900"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_space_bats

Do you know which forum you are on?

[Otto Kretschmer]

Thing is, alternate history normally involves things that could have gone a different way if events in real history had turned out a different way in a plausible fashion, e.g. if Roman rule extends farther north into Germania (e.g. the Romans are not defeated at Teutoburger Wald) and Romance survives there to the present, with a Germanic substratum.

Look yourself The subforum is called "Alien Space Bats and Other Magic", third most popular subforum after "Alternate History Before 1900" and "Alternate History Post 1900"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_space_bats

Do you know which forum you are on?

Yes. I am asking from a purely linguistic perspective, which I believe fits this forum

[Rounin Ryuuji]

Going the alien space bat route, which will probably be narratively unsatisfying because of its implausibility, you could take it any which way you wanted.

[Ketsuban]

Thing is, alternate history normally involves things that could have gone a different way if events in real history had turned out a different way in a plausible fashion, e.g. if Roman rule extends farther north into Germania (e.g. the Romans are not defeated at Teutoburger Wald) and Romance survives there to the present, with a Germanic substratum.

That's certainly one style of alternate history, but there's another style that follows the "one central nonsense on which everything else hangs" style of speculative fiction and posits a single counterfactual absurdity before exploring the consequences with a maximum of rigour and plausibility.

In this case, we have a population of Norse in the north of Japan in the eighth century AD. Why? Alien space bats. Point is they're there, what are the linguistic implications?

[Otto Kretschmer]

what are the linguistic implications?

Possibly a writing system like this

天皇 绿地ᛋ 見ᛅᛁᛏ ᛅ 戦士ᛁ 他ᛁᚾᛅ 前 他ᛅᛁᛦ 行ᚬᚱᚢ ᛁ 戦争
Tænhvanr Grænlands leit á drengi sína áður en þeir fóru í stríð

Some stuff is weird. I used Chinese character for "he" + ina for sina (his) and he+eir for their (they). Chinese characters for ideas, Futhark for grammr
A lot like Japanese is written - one needs to learn several thousand Han characters + 18 Futhark letters (it's 96 characters for hiragana + katakana). English written in a similar way would look like this

绿地s 天皇 見ed at 他is 戦士s 前 他ey 行ent to 戦争
"Greenland's Emperor looked at his warriors before they went to war"