Twin Aster

Conworlds and conlangs
bradrn
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by bradrn »

A nitpicky post:
Man in Space wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:07 pm I'm thinking about having XTC feature an animacy hierarchy. This would go

1 > 2 > 3 > proper names (incl. cities) > people > cities/regions > animate > inanimate

To reverse the hierarchy, the clitic =iên is added:

Xiur-iên de̋ncqpse̋rng psäoncq
xiur
1SG.M
=iên
ANIM
de̋ncqpse̋rng
greet
psäoncq
2SG.M

'you greet me'
I’m not sure I understand exactly how XTC uses this animacy hierarchy. Does it have a direct-inverse system where subjects must outrank objects unless =iên is used, or is it something else?
Man in Space wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:46 pm Black plant. Kingdom of plant-like constructs employing black or dark grey chlorophylls.

Red plant. Kingdom of plant-like constructs employing red chlorophylls.

Yellow plant. Kingdom of plant-like constructs employing yellow chlorophylls.
Surely if they’re grey/red/yellow, they can’t be chlorophyll, which is a specific green pigment? (On Earth, red algae use phycocyanin and phycoerythrin, while yellow autumn leaves contain xanthophylls and beta-carotene.)
Man in Space wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2023 8:59 pm OK. To reconcile the conlang with my typesetting engine, Vyə is now Vyʌ:
What kind of typesetting engine could handle ⟨ʌ⟩ but not ⟨ə⟩?
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Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Man in Space »

bradrn wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2023 10:15 pmA nitpicky post:
Much appreciated regardless!
bradrn wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2023 10:15 pm
Man in Space wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:07 pmI'm thinking about having XTC feature an animacy hierarchy. This would go

1 > 2 > 3 > proper names (incl. cities) > people > cities/regions > animate > inanimate

To reverse the hierarchy, the clitic =iên is added:

Xiur-iên de̋ncqpse̋rng psäoncq
xiur
1SG.M
=iên
ANIM
de̋ncqpse̋rng
greet
psäoncq
2SG.M

'you greet me'
I’m not sure I understand exactly how XTC uses this animacy hierarchy. Does it have a direct-inverse system where subjects must outrank objects unless =iên is used, or is it something else?
I'm not entirely sure either. Any suggestions?
bradrn wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2023 10:15 pm
Man in Space wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:46 pm Black plant. Kingdom of plant-like constructs employing black or dark grey chlorophylls.

Red plant. Kingdom of plant-like constructs employing red chlorophylls.

Yellow plant. Kingdom of plant-like constructs employing yellow chlorophylls.
Surely if they’re grey/red/yellow, they can’t be chlorophyll, which is a specific green pigment? (On Earth, red algae use phycocyanin and phycoerythrin, while yellow autumn leaves contain xanthophylls and beta-carotene.)
I'm using "chlorophyll" here as a shorthand for "it does what chlorophyll does except in a different color".
bradrn wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2023 10:15 pm
Man in Space wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2023 8:59 pm OK. To reconcile the conlang with my typesetting engine, Vyə is now Vyʌ:
What kind of typesetting engine could handle ⟨ʌ⟩ but not ⟨ə⟩?
XeLaTeX calling TT Marxiana via fontspec. TT Marxiana is the most beautiful family of fonts I've ever seen, but its support for diacritics is seriously lacking. So, I have to make do. The problem with ⟨ə⟩ is that there's no majuscule form of it (there isn't even a schwa at all, I have to rotate it using \T from semtrans or something similar) so if I use a text-size hack it looks conspicuously out of place in aesthetics (the lines are noticeably thicker). I have to do the same thing to get ⟨ʌ⟩ but at least capital ⟨V⟩ exists and can be rotated.
bradrn
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by bradrn »

Man in Space wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2023 10:30 pm
bradrn wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2023 10:15 pm
Man in Space wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:07 pmI'm thinking about having XTC feature an animacy hierarchy. This would go

1 > 2 > 3 > proper names (incl. cities) > people > cities/regions > animate > inanimate

To reverse the hierarchy, the clitic =iên is added:

Xiur-iên de̋ncqpse̋rng psäoncq
xiur
1SG.M
=iên
ANIM
de̋ncqpse̋rng
greet
psäoncq
2SG.M

'you greet me'
I’m not sure I understand exactly how XTC uses this animacy hierarchy. Does it have a direct-inverse system where subjects must outrank objects unless =iên is used, or is it something else?
I'm not entirely sure either. Any suggestions?
Oh, languages use animacy hierarchies in very many different ways. In direct-inverse systems, one common phenomenon is for animacy to control which argument gets marked on the verb, but beyond that I’m not quite sure if there’s anything else specific that I can highlight.
bradrn wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2023 10:15 pm
Man in Space wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2023 8:59 pm OK. To reconcile the conlang with my typesetting engine, Vyə is now Vyʌ:
What kind of typesetting engine could handle ⟨ʌ⟩ but not ⟨ə⟩?
XeLaTeX calling TT Marxiana via fontspec. TT Marxiana is the most beautiful family of fonts I've ever seen, but its support for diacritics is seriously lacking. So, I have to make do. The problem with ⟨ə⟩ is that there's no majuscule form of it (there isn't even a schwa at all, I have to rotate it using \T from semtrans or something similar) so if I use a text-size hack it looks conspicuously out of place in aesthetics (the lines are noticeably thicker). I have to do the same thing to get ⟨ʌ⟩ but at least capital ⟨V⟩ exists and can be rotated.
Hmm… looking at TT Marxiana, it looks extremely similar to Computer Modern, which of course is LaTeX’s default font. If you just use Computer Modern for body text, you could still preserve some of the character by pairing it with TT Marxiana Grotesque for headings.

(Or you could write everything in TT Marxiana but switch to Computer Modern for words and texts in Vyə. Usually I get annoyed when people switch between two slightly different fonts, but if you make Vyə words italic or bolded, it just might work out.)
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Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Man in Space »

Thinking about having ə > a / _{w,j} with *w *j remaining as such when in postvocalic position not immediately before another vowel.

*kathrəwdhu > kathráudh
*ɢətwə > qtvʌ́
*swasi > svás
*uyada > úyda
*əwgara > augra
*thyəwri > thyáur
*yəthyawa > yʌthíva
*agrawa > gráva
*agrawi > gráu
*wakni > wakní? wákni? Any opinions?
*djgəwa > djgʌ́va
*qhrasgi > qhrásg

*bhətji agrawi-u > *bhə́tj gráwyu > *bhə́tj gráwyu > bhʌ́tj grávi 'two gráus'
*agrawi-yəgu > *gráwiyəg > *gráwyəg > gráuyʌg

*i > i DEFINITE
*i-yəgu > yʌg PEGATIVE DEF
*i-fi > fi GENITIVE DEF
*i-pə > ípʌ DATIVE DEF
*i-ki > ki ACCUSATIVE DEF
*i-ugu > gu ABLATIVE DEF
*i-u > u PARTITIVE DEF

*i-yə > CARITATIVE DEF
*i-dja > ídja CAUSAL DEF
*i-ygə > igʌ CAUSAL-FINAL DEF
*i-yra > ra DISTRIBUTIVE DEF
*i-fyə > fyʌ́ INSTRUCTIVE DEF
*i-tjwa > itjvá INSTRUMENTAL DEF
*i-naya > ínya ORNATIVE DEF
*i-wga > uga PRIVATIVE DEF
*i-iti > it SEMBLATIVE DEF

*i-dya > dya ADESSIVE DEF
*i-rə > írʌ ALLATIVE DEF
*i-wra > urʌ ANTESSIVE DEF
*i-sə > ísʌ ORIENTATIVE DEF
*i-dgayə > idgáyʌ REVERTIVE DEF (> idgái? dgáyʌ? dgái?)
*i-awra > urá SUBESSIVE DEF
*i-qhə > íqhʌ SUPERESSIVE DEF

*i-aya > ya ELATIVE DEF
*i-wə > POSTELATIVE DEF
*i-dga > ídga ILLATIVE DEF
*i-i > i INITIATIVE DEF
*i-pəgwə > ibgvʌ́ PERLATIVE DEF (> bgvʌ́? ibgʌ́?)
*i-kwədjə > íkudjʌ SUPERLATIVE DEF (> íkudj? ígdjʌ?)
*i-gi > gi TERMINATIVE DEF
Travis B.
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Travis B. »

Lions and tigers and cases oh my!
Ġëbba nuġmy sik'a läka jälåsåmâxûiri mohhomijekene.
Leka ṙotammy sik'a ġëbbäri mohhomijekëlâṙáisä.
Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa. Q'omysa.
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Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Man in Space »

Redoing the Proto-Vyʌ phonology just a touch:

/m n (nʲ)/ (Not sure I want to keep *nʲ but not sure I want to get rid of it either)
/p pʰ b t tʰ d tʲ tʲʰ dʲ k kʰ g q qʰ ɢ/
/f s/
/ɹ j w/

/a ə Ø/

(C)(g/r/j/w)V

*wØ, *jØ > *u, *i

*ġyabrə 1SG.M > ġyábrʌ
*qhu 1SG.F > qhú
*prə 1PL > prʌ́
*ġyə 2M.SUP > ġyʌ́
*ġaya 2M.INF > ġya
*tjhə 2F > tjhʌ́
*byə 3.M.SUP > byʌ́
*ġu 3.M.INF > ġú
*tjhaphrə 3F > tjháphrʌ
*kha 3.ZOIC > khá
*khrə 3.INAN > khrʌ́

*fikyatya > fkitya

*ġyabrə-yəgu gnətjri-irgi khrə-ki ġaya-pə > gyábrʌyʌg gnʌ́djrg khrʌ́k ġyapʌ
gyábrʌ
1SG.M
-yʌg
PEG
gnʌ́dj
give
-rg
EXP
khrʌ́
3.INAN
-k
ACC
ġyapʌ
2M.INF.DAT

'I gave it to you'
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Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Man in Space »

ġyábrʌ phrarvg khrʌ́k khrvə
'I (m.) lost sight of it behind it'

----

I just realized something about XTC. As written, /k/ is qu before e i—initially I had thought of restricting the appearance of /u̯/ in that position, but now I'm rethinking that. Perhaps one of the dialects analogizes /u̯/ to all /k/-onsets whereas another eliminates them entirely. Spelling doesn't do much to help in these regards, but oh well…

Spelling /ʒ/ as y leads to some ambiguities with the diphthongs ay uy. To remedy this, the diphthong is the default reading (ayV uyV is read as diphthong-plus-vowel) and an infixed h is added if the sequence is /aʒV uʒV/ (ahyV uhyV).

There's two types of nouns in XTC—thematic and athematic.

Thematic nouns have some kind of final consonant (-cq, for instance, often appears with inanimates or intangibles) and/or a nasalized vowel, while athematic nouns end in a plain vowel. The plural for a thematic noun is -a̋e (turning a previously final r to l and turning vowel nasalization to -g- in the process):

de̋dlûcq ~ de̋dlûka̋e
qotläec ~ qotläeca̋e
quûyr ~ quûyla̋e
bâorxûyng ~ bâorxûyga̋e

Athematic nouns nasalize the vowel and suffix a -c and call it a day.

gâläe ~ gâläenc
psőrlě ~ psőrlěnc
tliȧy ~ tliȧync
kaoqűhyô ~ kaoqűhyônc

-uı is an adjectivizing ending; after a nasalized vowel the nasalization is converted to an intervocalic -g-.

gäng 'east' > gäguı 'east(ern)'
lűxǒng 'west' > lűxǒguı 'west(ern)'
bjȧoc 'north' > bjȧocuı 'north(ern)'
quiûxûy 'south' > quiûxûyuı 'south(ern)'

bätáng 'give birth, beget'
xȧo 'raise, rear'

je̋ Lűxǒguı Fıladaerfja, bätángmǐ vǎy xȧomǐ…
je̋
LOC
lűxǒng
west
-uı
ADJ
Fıladaerfja
Philadelphia
bätáng
give.birth
-mǐ
PTCP
vǎy
and
xȧo
bring.up
-mǐ
PTCP
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Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Man in Space »

Memo to self: XTC has a status constructus construction for nouns in apposition whereby all the tones on the second word have to be in register 2.

gǎexuy 'thunder'
ya̋c 'box'

ya̋c gâexùy 'ammunition crate' ('thunder box')
Creyeditor
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Creyeditor »

Nice :)
Looks a bit like Grassfields Bantu associative constructions, except more reasonable.
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Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Man in Space »

Anatomy of a composite CT hieroglyph:

Image
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Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Man in Space »

A CT sentence:

Image
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Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Man in Space »

Image

This is the basic grid on which Caber logograms are drawn. The blue lines are primarily used when you're drawing the head on a person, but they do have other uses (like when compressing a glyph to fit with a phonetic or semantic radical).
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Raphael
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Raphael »

Man in Space wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 2:42 am Image

This is the basic grid on which Caber logograms are drawn. The blue lines are primarily used when you're drawing the head on a person, but they do have other uses (like when compressing a glyph to fit with a phonetic or semantic radical).
Is that the "just" grid you use yourself, or also one used by the people who use Caber logograms?
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Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Man in Space »

Raphael wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 4:00 amIs that the "just" grid you use yourself, or also one used by the people who use Caber logograms?
The former. Apologies for the lack of clarity on that.
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Raphael
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Raphael »

Man in Space wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 4:35 am
Raphael wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 4:00 amIs that the "just" grid you use yourself, or also one used by the people who use Caber logograms?
The former. Apologies for the lack of clarity on that.
Thank you, no worry.
keenir
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by keenir »

Man in Space wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 2:42 am Image

This is the basic grid on which Caber logograms are drawn. The blue lines are primarily used when you're drawing the head on a person, but they do have other uses (like when compressing a glyph to fit with a phonetic or semantic radical).
Its a very much lot of lines, which was a little scary (I'd initially thought it was rows of pixels & that was what you'd made a program to allow maximum variation in what could be placed onscreen)...

...but then I read how size is used to differentiate radicals from regular signs.

Quite impressive. Many kudos to you!
Raphael wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 4:00 amIs that the "just" grid you use yourself, or also one used by the people who use Caber logograms?
I would imagine Man In Space uses Caber logograms as well. :)
(sorry)

Also, I imagine that the grid - or something very much along those lines (pun not intended) would be used by students studying the correct layout of their writing system.
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Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Man in Space »

I was rereading part of the ALC the other day and it gave me the impetus to use an SCA again, see what shakes out of CT. I've not used SCA2 much, but I think that the output options highlighting the specific evolutions might help me make better decisions about sound changes. So, let's see.

First, a couple housekeeping items that you can all ignore; if you're curious, a peek under the hood as to a common method I use to start out with conlangs.

The following are the two gen inputs I wanted to save in the first place by writing this.
More: show
C=płrlšžwmybzshθdkðtn0
F=000šłzθðžsh
V=æuaoiɛeɔ
R=00rl
T=HL
K=00000000płrlžwmybšzshθdkðtn

0||
L||
æH|ǽ
uH|ú
aH|á
oH|ó
iH|í
ɛH|ɛ́
eH|é
ɔH|ɔ́
łł|tł
ll|tł
rr|ts
θθ|tθ
ðð|dð
ss|ts
zz|dz
šš|tš
žž|dž

FCVTRK
More: show
C=lhšžłdbrpmtkθzywðnsØ
D=ØØlhšžłdbrpmtkθzywðns
F=Øszšžłθð
R=Ørl
V=ɛoæuieaɔ
T=HL

Ø||
L||
ɛH|ɛ́
oH|ó
æH|ǽ
uH|ú
iH|í
eH|é
aH|á
ɔH|ɔ́

FCVTRD
If I already have an idea for an inventory, generally I'll explore that. If I don't, generally I'll start with gleb. It often takes multiple runs (and much editing) to get something interesting yet reasonable, but sometimes some surprises—and challenges, with results of varying degrees of pleasance—crop up.

One thing I very often do, however, is go to RANDOM.ORG and use the list randomizer to randomize the order of the inputs from whatever phonology I'm working with. I then take that and use that as my probabilistic ranking. I do this with most subcategories unless I have a very clear idea of what I'm trying to do. Used to be I'd randomize the syllable types sometimes, but usually I do prefer to dope the pool one way or the other.
bradrn
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by bradrn »

Man in Space wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:52 pm I've not used SCA2 much, but I think that the output options highlighting the specific evolutions might help me make better decisions about sound changes.
If I may be allowed a little self-promotion… my Brassica SCA can do that too, and with an even better display!
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices

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Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Man in Space »

Image
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Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Man in Space »

I'm trying to prepare a text for the schlaugh Faire of Short-Stories. I have the thought to write a hymn in Archaic Vyâ (yes I changed the romanization again), the "Hymn of the Doorway". To do that I actually need sufficient language to pen a few idiotic verses and maybe a meter to sync it to.

And, of course, a musical tradition…because it's a hymn, supposed to be sung, yeah? I'm thinking basically tonic-fourth-fifth-octave, maybe with a second of some sort added.

I may be overthinking this. But the costume went over well, why not see if lightning strikes twice?

----

It has long been known to Vyâ grammarians that verbs in sará become gsra in the irrealis—that is, it loses its first vowel and its accent. This is a general pattern. Vyâ grammarians separated verbs into archetypes based on their phonetic shape; these tended to be named for a verb with the given phonological attributes.

phsrá 'do, act, take action' : phkhsra stood for all verbs of Csrá- form.
skyấra 'eat' : ksyấra stood for all verbs of sK(R)ấCa- form.
vấg 'duplicate, multiply' : gvấg stood in for verbs in vấC.

I had somewhere I was going with this but I lost it.

----

The nominalizer *-ygi- in Proto-Vyâ denoted some sort of tool or object associated with or characterized by that action.

*khukhsâ > khukhsấ 'swing' + *-ygi > khsấig 'door'.

In older compounds, the accent appears to have retracted to the accented syllable in the compound or to have been omitted entirely if the second element lacked one. Khsâghbhấtj, the mystic doorway between the material and the ethereal, is a bit of an archaism—it directly preserves the PV dual, which was literally just *kukhsâ-ygi-bhấtji swing-TOOL-two.

This would then imply that the case endings came around later and messed things up but in an entirely different direction. I think I can work with this. What I can't work with is having made four different plural endings and then forgetting what the class system was set up like.

----

Right, so I have this archaic plural *kukhsâ-ygi-bhấtji and I haven't messed it up enough yet. In short order;

- Thanks to that pesky *-y- in the suffix, the high-vowel deletion rule applies. This leaves a cluster *khkhs-, which resolves by deleting the first consonant.
- The rule then strikes twice: The *-ygi- drops the *-y-.
- It's really, really frequent to drop *-i-s in this specific environment. It might've been some sort of stress rule, analogy, simple simplification in multisyllabic words…and it happened here. *-g- assimilates to -gh-.
- The final high vowel, predictably, drops: Khsâghbhấtj.

Now, to determine to what extent the endings wreck this:

Start simple: The accusative in *-ki-. *kukhsâ-ygi-bhấtji-ki gets absolutely mauled by the high-vowel deletions. Impressively, it shows a regular development of -k.

baqrấni 'to live'. Simple enough...PV regularly deleted the accent.

*baqrấni- + *-i = baqrâni

*baqrấni-i-aya > *baqrâníaya > *baqrânaya > baqrânya 'out of life'
*baqrấni-i-dga > *baqrânidga > baqrânidga 'into life'

*utuwaqhi > *útuwaqhi > *tuwaqh > tvaqh 'death' / There's some contention around the actual form of this verb in the first place in PV; by rights, 'to die' should be táqh. Interestingly, turaqh (< *twaaqhi + *<r>).

*twaaqhi > *twaáqhi > *twaqhi > *taqh 'to die'. Yes, an asterisk: This verb only really exists for its verbnoun; the irrealis túraqh is employed for all situations.

*twaáqhi-i-aya > *twaqhya > thqhya 'out of death'
*twaáqhi-i-dga > *twaqhidga > tvaqhidga 'into death'

twaaqhi > târwáaqhi > târaqhya

baqrânya tvaqhidga, tvaqhya baqrânidga 'out of life, into death; out of death, into life'

kgiəfa *k<K>yâfa = *ksyấfa > ksyấva 'to pass'

ksyấfa-irgi > ksấvarg 'would have passed, will have passed' + verbal augment -r-…ksâryâfa-irgi > ksấryâfayrgi > ksryâvarg
ksyấfa

ksyấfa 'to pass' + -r- verbal augment > *ks<âr>yâfa > ksryâfa 'to cross a threshold'

Ksryấfarg tvá: Baqrânya tvaqhidga, tvaqhya baqrânidga ksryấfarg…
ksyấva
pass
<r>
AUG
-rg
EXP
tvá
this.way


Shoot. They really all should have the augmentative, shouldn't they?

*baqrânyi + *<r> > *bráqranyi > brqrani '(perma)life'…oh that's awesome. Hold up…add '-aya-' to that and *brqranyiaya becomes brqranya…'-dga-', *brqranyidga > brqranidga

*twáaqhi + *<r> > *târwáaqhi > *târaqh '(perma)death'. *târaqhyaya > târaqhya, *târaqhidga

…ksryấvargv tvá: brqranya târaqhidga, târaqhya brqranidga…
ksyấva
pass
-rg
EXP
-v
M
tvá
this.way
baqrấni
live
<r>
AUG
<X>
DVB
-ya
ELATIVE
taqh
die
<r>
AUG
<X>
DVB
-idga
ILLATIVE
taqh
die
<r>
AUG
<X>
DVB
-ya
ELATIVE
baqrấni
live
<r>
AUG
<X>
DVB
-idga
ILLATIVE

'…and so would [I] pass: out of life, into death; out of death, into life…'
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