Zompist Bboard Again

The Elvenpath is my main conculture project. It is about the Elves, a human ethnic group existing "in the real world", originating in the British Isles. These Elves have no non-human or superhuman features, they are a "race" only in the old-fashioned usage as 'nation, ethnic group'. The Elves speak Albic language, which are a subgroup of the Hesperic branch of the Indo-European family.

The beginnings

According to their own tradition, the Elves descended from the Horselords, a mythological people originating in the east, who migrated up the Danube, down the Rhine and across the Channel. This seems to be a quite faithful account of the actual origin of the Elves, via the Bell Beaker culture, from the Yamnaya culture in the Eastern European steppe. The Elven tradition then speaks of a heroic age, which may be identified with the Wessex culture, followed by a less prosperous and heroic time.

The ancient Elvish civilization

Around 600 BC, a civilization blossomed in the British Isles, which inspired the Germanic and Celtic traditions of Elves, and possibly the Greek tradition of Hyperborea and may have provided the staging ground for Plato's story of Atlantis (his description of the island of Atlantis actually fits Britain quite well). This civilization was technologically about on a par with Ancient Greece, and had introduced an early form of federal democracy and even a kind of welfare state. These are the ancient Elves. The language of this civilization is Old Albic. The ancient Elves were quite an enlightened people (I made them to reflect my personal philosophy), but they of course did not always live up to their ideals, and the civilization was in the end brought down by internal strife.

After the fall of the ancient Elvish civilization

After the fall of the ancient Elvish civilization, the British Isles were conquered by Celtic warlords, some pockets of Elves survived. One of them was in and around Glastonbury, Somerset, where, according to the Elven tradition, Joseph of Arimathea brought the chalice of the Last Supper and the story and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. In the time of King Arthur, this pocket was known as Avalon, and plays a role in the Arthurian legend.

The Hiding

After the death of King Arthur, the Elves went into the Hiding, a policy of secrecy in order to evade persecutions and secretly work to nudge the European civilization towards a form of society closer to the ideals of the ancient Elvish civilization, and began to disseminate various progressive ideas. This is the situation in which the Elves still live today.

Some ideas for an epic

As I was waiting for sleep last night, I got some ideas for an Old Albic epic. The epic is set in the heroic age, which is the time of the Wessex culture, and (for now) named the Atlantagvíthá 'Song of the Face of the World', wherein Atlantá is poetic name for the Elvenlands (its resemblance to Atlantis is intended), and gvíthá meant to be a cognate of Old Norse kviða and Sanskrit gîtâ (if these two are cognate, of which I am not sure).

The epic tells of two kings. One has two sons, the other two daughters. They arrange that the elder son of one king marries the younger daughter of the other, and the younger son the elder daughter, such that the two brothers become the heirs to the two thrones. The outcome of this is a time of peace and prosperity, but that is not meant to last. For one of the queen has a necklace made by Dwarves, whom she pays with sexual favours. When her husband finds out about this, he and his brother wage war against the Dwarves. They win the war, but cannot agree on how to share the spoils, and after a series of insults, they go to war against each other, and in the end, everyone is dead.

I've followed your creations here and there and wondered what was elven about your Elves. Interesting that the answer is, basically, nothing, and yet their culture and mythos touches on aesthetically 'elvy'/fae folklore (like Arthur, Avalon, Atlantis). I like what you're doing, and think the epic sounds pretty true to ancient epics in general. Are the sexual favors explicit, or ambiguous; might it partly be suspicion that leads the brothers to declare war on the Dwarves?

And last question, are the Dwarves in your epic mythological creatures of the Elves' imaginations, it is there a group of humans called Dwarves (like your Elves)?

Sounds interesting. Why are they Elves? Were they regarded as qualitatively different by neighboring nations? How did the Elves reconcile medieval Christianity with progressivism? Are the Elves associated with secret societies like the Illuminati?

They are "Elves" because they are what inspired the Germanic and Celtic traditions of elves, though they are just a human civilization. And the "Dwarves" are another human ethnic group, descendants of the Neolithic, pre-IE people of the British Isles. And today, they are indeed a kind of Illuminati, though they aren't very powerful. They haven't infiltrated governments or other powerful institutions to any significant degrees, but they have been disseminating progressive ideas while staying in hiding.

Thank you, great to finally see some details on this culture that you've dropped hints about for so long!

Does the fact that there used to be a remnant of the pre-Hiding Elves near what is now Glastonbury explain why Glastonbury ended up with a regular event that is attended by many people who think of themselves as having more or less progressive politics?

I've enjoyed reading what you've written, WeepingElf, for some time now, and I haven't had comments, but I want to say that I find it interesting.

I liked your description of the epic. It reminds me of Tolkien in a lot of ways - I'm assuming that's because you're both drawing on earlier stories? (which I don't know much about)

Also, I just now noticed that your avatar is an eight-pointed star. Which could mean many things, but since you've mentioned Tolkien as an influence - is it a reference to the star of Fëanor?

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Feb 09, 2026 2:24 pm Thank you, great to finally see some details on this culture that you've dropped hints about for so long!

Does the fact that there used to be a remnant of the pre-Hiding Elves near what is now Glastonbury explain why Glastonbury ended up with a regular event that is attended by many people who think of themselves as having more or less progressive politics?

Yes. There still are some Elves in Glastonbury now; also in Notting Hill, Haight-Ashbury and Amsterdam. Elves played a role in fomenting the hippie counterculture.

Axas mlö wrote: ↑Mon Feb 09, 2026 11:15 pm I've enjoyed reading what you've written, WeepingElf, for some time now, and I haven't had comments, but I want to say that I find it interesting.

I liked your description of the epic. It reminds me of Tolkien in a lot of ways - I'm assuming that's because you're both drawing on earlier stories? (which I don't know much about)

Yep. The necklace thing is based on the Norse story about the Brisingamen, a necklace Freya had made by Dwarves whom she paid for with sexual favours, which enraged Odin for obvious reasons. Tolkien used the same tale for the story of the Nauglamir, a necklace Melian (Elf-king Thingol's wife) had made by Dwarves, though that version of the story doesn't involve sexual favours, but it resulted in a war between Elves and Dwarves nonetheless.

Axas mlö wrote: ↑Mon Feb 09, 2026 11:15 pm Also, I just now noticed that your avatar is an eight-pointed star. Which could mean many things, but since you've mentioned Tolkien as an influence - is it a reference to the star of Fëanor?

Yes, it goes back to that star, and while I don't like Fëanor, of course, the idea of a white eight-pointed star in a blue field as the Elven flag is old and deeply ingrained within me. I considered changing it several times, but could not come up with anything I liked better.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Tue Feb 10, 2026 6:51 am Yes. There still are some Elves in Glastonbury now; also in Notting Hill, Haight-Ashbury and Amsterdam. Elves played a role in fomenting the hippie counterculture.

Aha! That explains some of the Rather Strange People we met in Glastonbury when we were on holiday a few years ago.

alice wrote: ↑Tue Feb 10, 2026 2:20 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Tue Feb 10, 2026 6:51 am Yes. There still are some Elves in Glastonbury now; also in Notting Hill, Haight-Ashbury and Amsterdam. Elves played a role in fomenting the hippie counterculture.

Aha! That explains some of the Rather Strange People we met in Glastonbury when we were on holiday a few years ago.

I've never been in Glastonbury, but I have heard that it attracts various sorts of strange people (not all to the liking of the Elves, though).

alice wrote: ↑Tue Feb 10, 2026 2:20 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Tue Feb 10, 2026 6:51 am Yes. There still are some Elves in Glastonbury now; also in Notting Hill, Haight-Ashbury and Amsterdam. Elves played a role in fomenting the hippie counterculture.

Aha! That explains some of the Rather Strange People we met in Glastonbury when we were on holiday a few years ago.

Did any of them end up in Utah and/or Gary, Indiana? (Not just a meme question.)

On a more serious note, I have said before of the admiration and respect you put into Hesperic and friends and the way you integrate ongoing research well and have no problems making major, substantive changes based on how your knowledge (and linguistics generally) evolves over time. It bears repeating here. Your commitment to realism in the endeavor is something I find quite admirable.

Man in Space wrote: ↑Tue Feb 10, 2026 4:45 pm

alice wrote: ↑Tue Feb 10, 2026 2:20 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Tue Feb 10, 2026 6:51 am Yes. There still are some Elves in Glastonbury now; also in Notting Hill, Haight-Ashbury and Amsterdam. Elves played a role in fomenting the hippie counterculture.

Aha! That explains some of the Rather Strange People we met in Glastonbury when we were on holiday a few years ago.

Did any of them end up in Utah and/or Gary, Indiana? (Not just a meme question.)

Why Utah, and why Gary, Indiana? Utah especially doesn't strike me as a place that would be particularly attractive to Elves. And Gary, Indiana, well, all I know of it is that there are many African Americans there.

Man in Space wrote: ↑Tue Feb 10, 2026 8:49 pm On a more serious note, I have said before of the admiration and respect you put into Hesperic and friends and the way you integrate ongoing research well and have no problems making major, substantive changes based on how your knowledge (and linguistics generally) evolves over time. It bears repeating here. Your commitment to realism in the endeavor is something I find quite admirable.

Thank you!

What kind of person names a town "Gary", anyway? What's next, "Joe"? "Bill"? "Bob"? "Matt"?

On an only somewhat more serious note, given how much a lot of the Far Right's conspiracy theories are based on being unable to tell the difference between fiction and reality - see, for instance, their ideas about satellites shooting lasers from space, famous people being replaced with clones, or microchips being injected into people to mind-control them - how long until some people from the fever swamps discover this thread and start believing that it's actually an "admission" of something real?

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Feb 11, 2026 7:28 am On an only somewhat more serious note, given how much a lot of the Far Right's conspiracy theories are based on being unable to tell the difference between fiction and reality - see, for instance, their ideas about satellites shooting lasers from space, famous people being replaced with clones, or microchips being injected into people to mind-control them - how long until some people from the fever swamps discover this thread and start believing that it's actually an "admission" of something real?

I was about to ask, does the Elvenpath setting have anti-Elf conspiracy theorists?

malloc wrote: ↑Wed Feb 11, 2026 7:43 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Feb 11, 2026 7:28 am On an only somewhat more serious note, given how much a lot of the Far Right's conspiracy theories are based on being unable to tell the difference between fiction and reality - see, for instance, their ideas about satellites shooting lasers from space, famous people being replaced with clones, or microchips being injected into people to mind-control them - how long until some people from the fever swamps discover this thread and start believing that it's actually an "admission" of something real?

I was about to ask, does the Elvenpath setting have anti-Elf conspiracy theorists?

It does.

Very interesting to see more details on this finally!

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Feb 11, 2026 7:28 am On an only somewhat more serious note, given how much a lot of the Far Right's conspiracy theories are based on being unable to tell the difference between fiction and reality - see, for instance, their ideas about satellites shooting lasers from space, famous people being replaced with clones, or microchips being injected into people to mind-control them - how long until some people from the fever swamps discover this thread and start believing that it's actually an "admission" of something real?

I think it was Terry Pratchett who once wrote of an interviewer who thought Good Omens was meant as nonfiction. (Might have been Neil Gaiman.)

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Wed Feb 11, 2026 8:11 am

malloc wrote: ↑Wed Feb 11, 2026 7:43 am I was about to ask, does the Elvenpath setting have anti-Elf conspiracy theorists?

It does.

But I thought the whole point was that this world was supposed to be indistinguishable from our world, in which the Elves remain completely unknown to human society?

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Feb 11, 2026 8:13 am

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Wed Feb 11, 2026 8:11 am

malloc wrote: ↑Wed Feb 11, 2026 7:43 am I was about to ask, does the Elvenpath setting have anti-Elf conspiracy theorists?

It does.

But I thought the whole point was that this world was supposed to be indistinguishable from our world, in which the Elves remain completely unknown to human society?

Good point. There are of course no popular anti-Elf conspiracy theories now. There is, though, a secret cabal who have gotten wind of them, and believe the Elves were evil, and try to stop them.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Wed Feb 11, 2026 6:35 amWhy Utah, and why Gary, Indiana? Utah especially doesn't strike me as a place that would be particularly attractive to Elves. And Gary, Indiana, well, all I know of it is that there are many African Americans there.

Utah because of the Mormons, being attractive to multiple flavors of that tradition (with beliefs and practices people find varying degrees of bizarre). Gary has a reputation of sort of being the Cleveland of Indiana—memetically it’s a miserable place that doesn’t appreciate outsiders.