War in the Middle East, again

[bradrn]

Just seen in my newspaper:

The US and Israel agreed to come up with a plan to get badly needed humanitarian aid into the Gaza Strip without it falling into the hands of Hamas, Secretary of State Antony Blinken said after about nine hours of talks with Israeli officials.

So that would be really great if they can figure out a plan to do so.

[rotting bones]

I doubt Israel's ground invasion was motivated by purely benevolent intentions. Didn't Hamas offer to return the captives if Israel would stop bombing civilians, and didn't Israel refuse?

Last I heard, Israel was holding off, though.

[Linguoboy]

I doubt Israel's ground invasion was motivated by purely benevolent intentions. Didn't Hamas offer to return the captives if Israel would stop bombing civilians, and didn't Israel refuse?

I haven't heard this before nor found confirmation of this claim. The latest I'm seeing from Hamas is that it will release the hostages when it's good and ready. It is still threatening to kill hostages in retaliation for airstrikes on civilian targets. Recently it's intimated that it would be willing to hand over at least some hostages in exchange for Palestinians held prisoner in Israel, though under what conditions is unclear. Israel's stance still appears to be that the only offer it's interested in is the unconditional release of all hostages.

[rotting bones]

Not sure if this is the story I was thinking of: https://www.nbcnews.com/now/video/hamas ... 5814981857 It's the first Google search result.

[Torco]

I see Israel as doing the best they can to remove civilians from the area, before acting decisively on Hamas’s terror.

didn't they, after telling gazans to evacuate towards the south, bomb the south ?

[rotting bones]

I see Israel as doing the best they can to remove civilians from the area, before acting decisively on Hamas’s terror.

didn't they, after telling gazans to evacuate towards the south, bomb the south ?

I heard they killed 70 civilians as they were heading south.

Meanwhile, billionaires are looking to punish Harvard students for not being rabidly anti-Hamas. I personally do hate Hamas, but this is like a scene out of 1984.

[bradrn]

I see Israel as doing the best they can to remove civilians from the area, before acting decisively on Hamas’s terror.

didn't they, after telling gazans to evacuate towards the south, bomb the south ?

I heard they killed 70 civilians as they were heading south.

And I heard that it was a false-flag operation by Hamas, which considering their prior behaviour towards their own civilians I find totally believable.

I now see there’s been a horrific explosion in a Gazan hospital. Israel blames a failed rocket from Islamic Jihad; Hamas blames Israel. The former version seems to be backed up by video evidence of projectiles fired from Gaza, and I also find it more believable — why would anyone target a hospital? That would be really absolutely tragic and beyond belief.

Either way, one thing’s for certain: for average Jews like me, life is going to get steadily more unsafe.

[rotting bones]

didn't they, after telling gazans to evacuate towards the south, bomb the south ?

I heard they killed 70 civilians as they were heading south.

And I heard that it was a false-flag operation by Hamas, which considering their prior behaviour towards their own civilians I find totally believable.

I now see there’s been a horrific explosion in a Gazan hospital. Israel blames a failed rocket from Islamic Jihad; Hamas blames Israel. The former version seems to be backed up by video evidence of projectiles fired from Gaza, and I also find it more believable — why would anyone target a hospital? That would be really absolutely tragic and beyond belief.

Either way, one thing’s for certain: for average Jews like me, life is going to get steadily more unsafe.

If there is evidence, I'm willing to believe it. The things Hamas will say and do traverses the unabridged space of possibilities.

Same for me. Although I'm not a Muslim since I'm a physical reductionist, "Islam" is my middle name. I would combat conspiracy theories if I could, but I can't even convince people of basic facts.

I only wish I could think of a way to ameliorate the literalness with which the 21st century is Hitler. I can't help but think we'd be better off if people lost some of their self-righteousness. But maybe they'd be worse as cold-blooded killers.

[rotting bones]

Hamas has done the most possible to negate sympathy for the Palestinians, and justify the killing of Palestinians, in the course of a week. The Israelis are now the victims and the Palestinians are now the perpetrators, and however many Palestinians die due to this is just an unfortunate side effect of that now Hamas must be destroyed, in the eyes of the world. Even people like myself who are inclined to sympathize with the Palestinians now tend to be of the view that the Israeli gov't now has no choice but to destroy Hamas, as sad as the inevitable deaths of Palestinian civilians are and will be. Furthermore, the fact that Hamas must have known that this would be the certain consequence of their actions negates any sympathy with them, because they are effectively sacrificing very many innocent Palestinians for their own self-righteous suicide, which should have been obvious from the beginning.

In a conflict of Hitler vs. Hitler, the just outcome is the victory of whichever faction has been more victimized by the other. Gazans have been living in inhumane conditions for decades. If one vengeful war crime turns the whole Palestinian people into aggressors, then justice is physically impossible in the real world. For example, European colonialists were oppressors when they were genociding the Native Americans, but if a Native American scalps a European colonialist, then Native Americans become the oppressors. Romans can enslave barbarians, but if the slaves rise in violent revolt, the slaves are the oppressors. Europeans can impose colonial policies on China, but if there's a Boxer Rebellion, the Kaiser is entitled to wipe out Chinese villages to teach them a lesson. Et cetera.

[Travis B.]

Hamas has done the most possible to negate sympathy for the Palestinians, and justify the killing of Palestinians, in the course of a week. The Israelis are now the victims and the Palestinians are now the perpetrators, and however many Palestinians die due to this is just an unfortunate side effect of that now Hamas must be destroyed, in the eyes of the world. Even people like myself who are inclined to sympathize with the Palestinians now tend to be of the view that the Israeli gov't now has no choice but to destroy Hamas, as sad as the inevitable deaths of Palestinian civilians are and will be. Furthermore, the fact that Hamas must have known that this would be the certain consequence of their actions negates any sympathy with them, because they are effectively sacrificing very many innocent Palestinians for their own self-righteous suicide, which should have been obvious from the beginning.

In a conflict of Hitler vs. Hitler, the just outcome is the victory of whichever faction has been more victimized by the other. Gazans have been living in inhumane conditions for decades. If one vengeful war crime turns the whole Palestinian people into aggressors, then justice is physically impossible in the real world. For example, European colonialists were oppressors when they were genociding the Native Americans, but if a Native American scalps a European colonialist, then Native Americans become the oppressors. Romans can enslave barbarians, but if the slaves rise in violent revolt, the slaves are the oppressors. Europeans can impose colonial policies on China, but if there's a Boxer Rebellion, the Kaiser is entitled to wipe out Chinese villages to teach them a lesson. Et cetera.

One key thing that should be emphasized is that Hamas is not the Palestinian people, and likewise the Israeli gov't is not the Israeli people. Hamas for the most part did not attack the Israeli state but rather largely innocent Israeli civilians. Of course, in response the Israeli gov't is doing much of the same in response, indiscriminately bombing largely innocent Palestinian civilians and denying them critically-needed water, food, and electricity. The key difference is that Hamas has initiated this cycle of violence, and is holding hostages whom they threaten to kill if the IDF conducts a ground invasion of Gaza, and consequently the Israeli gov't can justify its actions to the world as unfortunate but necessary to destroy Hamas or at least pressure Hamas into freeing the hostages.

[rotting bones]

Hamas for the most part did not attack the Israeli state but rather largely innocent Israeli civilians.

That doesn't sound right. They did attack military targets. However, since they are literally Hitler, they went for the softest part of the underbelly they could find. AFAIK the same was true for all the examples I gave. It sounds like you would've supported ethnic cleansing in colonial America, since the Native Americans did not restrict themselves to military targets.

The key difference is that Hamas has initiated this cycle of violence, and is holding hostages whom they threaten to kill if the IDF conducts a ground invasion of Gaza, and consequently the Israeli gov't can justify its actions to the world as unfortunate but necessary to destroy Hamas or at least pressure Hamas into freeing the hostages.

The UN says Hamas didn't initiate the conflict. Mainstream media, being literally Hitler, is lying again. The conflict has been brewing for a long time, and has finally boiled over.

However, I stand by what I said before. The best case scenario is the utter annihilation of Hamas. I would've supported Hamas if Judaism had taken over large parts of the globe and forced people into religious conservatism.

I understand my position is incomprehensible to a lot of people, but that's because those people are physiologically incapable of believing truths.

[Travis B.]

Hamas for the most part did not attack the Israeli state but rather largely innocent Israeli civilians.

That doesn't sound right. They did attack military targets. However, since they are literally Hitler, they went for the softest part of the underbelly they could find. AFAIK the same was true for all the examples I gave. It sounds like you would've supported ethnic cleansing in colonial America, since the Native Americans did not restrict themselves to military targets.

You make it sound like I support Israeli gov't's indiscriminate bombing campaign, including blowing up targets such as hospitals, or their denial of water, food, and electricity to countless innocent Gazans. I don't. And I did not say that Hamas only attacked civilian targets, just that they were the primary targets (yes, I know they did attack some military targets). What I was saying, though, was that Hamas gave the Israeli gov't what they needed to justify to the world what they are doing now, and that Hamas was and is willing to sacrifice thousands of innocent Gazans for their goals since what the Israeli gov't is doing now is entirely predictable.

The key difference is that Hamas has initiated this cycle of violence, and is holding hostages whom they threaten to kill if the IDF conducts a ground invasion of Gaza, and consequently the Israeli gov't can justify its actions to the world as unfortunate but necessary to destroy Hamas or at least pressure Hamas into freeing the hostages.

The UN says Hamas didn't initiate the conflict. Mainstream media, being literally Hitler, is lying again. The conflict has been brewing for a long time, and has finally boiled over.

Periodic fighting between Israel and Hamas has been going on for years, and yes, every so often Israel bombs something in Gaza. But that does not mean that Hamas isn't responsible for the dramatic escalation of the conflict since the Saturday before last. There is a difference between an occasional bombing, from the Israeli side, or the occasional launching of rockets, from the Hamas side, and going out and slaughtering 1300+ people, mostly civilians, and taking ~200 hostages in one go.

However, I stand by what I said before. The best case scenario is the utter annihilation of Hamas. I would've supported Hamas if Judaism had taken over large parts of the globe and forced people into religious conservatism.

At this point, there can only be two outcomes - either Israel conducts a ground invasion and destroys Hamas, with much blood spilled in the process, or Hamas frees all of the hostages in return for an end to this cycle of fighting and their survival. Which will happen depends upon how much Hamas seeks glorious self-destruction versus survival, and upon how much Israel wishes to prevent this from ever happening again versus how much Israel wants to recover the hostages. If Hamas starts killing hostages, their fate is sealed.

[rotting bones]

You make it sound like I support Israeli gov't's indiscriminate bombing campaign, including blowing up targets such as hospitals, or their denial of water, food, and electricity to countless innocent Gazans. I don't. And I did not say that Hamas only attacked civilian targets, just that they were the primary targets (yes, I know they did attack some military targets). What I was saying, though, was that Hamas gave the Israeli gov't what they needed to justify to the world what they are doing now, and that Hamas was and is willing to sacrifice thousands of innocent Gazans for their goals since what the Israeli gov't is doing now is entirely predictable.

I guess, if the US is the world. Even many Jews are on the side of Palestine.

Periodic fighting between Israel and Hamas has been going on for years, and yes, every so often Israel bombs something in Gaza. But that does not mean that Hamas isn't responsible for the dramatic escalation of the conflict since the Saturday before last. There is a difference between an occasional bombing, from the Israeli side, or the occasional launching of rockets, from the Hamas side, and going out and slaughtering 1300+ people, mostly civilians, and taking ~200 hostages in one go.

But UN experts disagree with the assessment that this attack was unprovoked. You can only snigger at Hitler while trampling over his human rights for so long before he chimps out.

At this point, there can only be two outcomes - either Israel conducts a ground invasion and destroys Hamas, with much blood spilled in the process, or Hamas frees all of the hostages in return for an end to this cycle of fighting and their survival. Which will happen depends upon how much Hamas seeks glorious self-destruction versus survival, and upon how much Israel wishes to prevent this from ever happening again versus how much Israel wants to recover the hostages. If Hamas starts killing hostages, their fate is sealed.

As much as I hope for a swift death to Hamas, Netanyahu's words of this being a long drawn out war keep haunting me. Since Israel will get rid of Netanyahu once Hamas is gone, it's in Netanyahu's interests to ratchet up the war crimes while keeping Hamas alive indefinitely. He can point to his war crimes as evidence that he's defending Israel. He can also say he can't get rid of Hamas at any given moment because of his code of ethics. I can only hope this war spirals out of control.

[keenir]

The UN says Hamas didn't initiate the conflict. Mainstream media, being literally Hitler, is lying again.

I'm afraid to ask where you get your news, then...the flight of birds?

However, I stand by what I said before. The best case scenario is the utter annihilation of Hamas. I would've supported Hamas if Judaism had taken over large parts of the globe and forced people into religious conservatism.

While I'm very sure you've been supporting Hamas through much of this thread, I'll focus on the rest of your statement:

I would've supported Hamas if Judaism had taken over large parts of the globe and forced people into religious conservatism.

{I could have sworn you had said "Mainstream Judaism"...i'll edit}

I can't remember Hamas ever taking over large parts of the globe...or even small parts of the globe. Therefore, I assume you're referring to Hamas' supporters and backers...granted, Russia+anyone automatically qualifies as "large parts of the globe"...but, again, I doubt you're against Russia either.

Which leaves Iran...which, while not a small nation, is not a large part of the globe (and hasn't been since their portion of the Mongol Urdu collapsed)...so maybe you meant the Twelvers or the Shia as a whole? Well, given that they don't cover a large portion of the globe, that disqualifies them as well; whether they constitute "Mainstream" is a debate I leave to more learned than you or I.

Did you mean Islam as a whole? Given that their "forced people into religious conservatism" is mostly in Twelver Iran and Wahabi Saudi Arabia, that again fails both the "mainstream" and the "global" parts of your statement.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I can't recall any time since King Herod the Great's Idumean grandfather was forced to convert because his homeland was conquered, that Israel practiced forced anything.

I understand my position is incomprehensible to a lot of people, but that's because those people are physiologically incapable of believing truths.

Wow, speaking of "literally hitler"...you're saying anyone who disagrees with you, therefore doesn't understand (because obviously anyone who understands, would agree with you)

[zompist]

Which will happen depends upon how much Hamas seeks glorious self-destruction versus survival, and upon how much Israel wishes to prevent this from ever happening again versus how much Israel wants to recover the hostages. If Hamas starts killing hostages, their fate is sealed.

Hamas can't be destroyed, not least because its leader lives in Qatar and can cause trouble that will not affect him personally. But also because Likud brutality produces Hamases. Hamas only took over Gaza in 2006, and though it was active earlier, it only really became important in the 1990s. in the 1980s the Israelis actually regularly talked with Hamas as they were hyper-focused on Fatah.

I'd rather not catastrophize over how much harm Israel will end up doing, but I have to push back against the idea that brutality is effective for either side. It's not: it doesn't solve anything, except sometimes the short-term problem of winning the next election.

Also, I don't believe this notion that Hamas "seeks glorious self-destruction". When people are beaten down, they want liberation, but some of them want to see someone fighting back. It seems clear Hamas wants that role, probably in part to discredit Fatah. They may also have made the cynical calculation that their own atrocities will pale before whatever Israel unleashes. People often think, despite historical evidence, that spotlighting their enemies' abuses will make everyone condemn them.

[rotting bones]

I'm afraid to ask where you get your news, then...the flight of birds?

Ground News. Why settle for mainstream news when you could consume eigenmainstream news, a distribution of mainstreamness along an appropriate axis?

{I could have sworn you had said "Mainstream Judaism"...i'll edit}

I did not. I would've used qualifiers like "Orthodox" if all these sects hadn't been modern in origin.

Did you mean Islam as a whole? Given that their "forced people into religious conservatism" is mostly in Twelver Iran and Wahabi Saudi Arabia, that again fails both the "mainstream" and the "global" parts of your statement.

Look, I'm sure global Islamism leaves you alone in your day to day existence. However, as a public apostate, I'm afraid I don't have that luxury. Salafi outreach is popping up all over the place. I can't even escape online. Islamist influencers are choking up my YouTube feed. (Who even watches Mohammad Hijab? Salafis hate him, and he has the charisma of a dead fish. Must be an Islamicate incel audience.)

You can't imagine the momentum they gained when the Taliban took over Afghanistan.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I can't recall any time since King Herod the Great's Idumean grandfather was forced to convert because his homeland was conquered, that Israel practiced forced anything.

I don't know how to make you understand that this is my whole point.

Wow, speaking of "literally hitler"...you're saying anyone who disagrees with you, therefore doesn't understand (because obviously anyone who understands, would agree with you)

This is what I mean:

While I'm very sure you've been supporting Hamas through much of this thread, I'll focus on the rest of your statement:

Your mind has been poisoned by "support" and "opposition" to the point of becoming insensitive to grand strategy. I can only recommend reading more history and possibly playing Diplomacy.

[rotting bones]

Also, I don't believe this notion that Hamas "seeks glorious self-destruction".

They say they do. What their leadership wants is a different question.

[keenir]

{I could have sworn you had said "Mainstream Judaism"...i'll edit}

I did not. I would've used qualifiers like "Orthodox" if all these sects hadn't been modern in origin.

I assume "500 years old" is modern for you.

Did you mean Islam as a whole? Given that their "forced people into religious conservatism" is mostly in Twelver Iran and Wahabi Saudi Arabia, that again fails both the "mainstream" and the "global" parts of your statement.

Look, I'm sure global Islamism leaves you alone in your day to day existence. However, as a public apostate, I'm afraid I don't have that luxury.

"global Islamism"???

Not sure what a public apostate is...my grandmother converted to an entirely different religion, and even the most hardcore member of her family didn't label her an apostate.

{EDIT: I have heard of apostates, yes; and I've heard of people having warrants out for them - ie Rushdie(sp)...is that what you mean by "public apostate"?}


The only scenario I can picture, is if you went to a public (IRL or online) place, and said "I denounce Islam and the prophets, and I intend to violate every single Pillar!".....and I don't believe even you would do something like that.

Salafi outreach is popping up all over the place. I can't even escape online. Islamist influencers are choking up my YouTube feed. (Who even watches Mohammad Hijab? Salafis hate him, and he has the charisma of a dead fish. Must be an Islamicate incel audience.)

as I understand it, Youtube looks at what you've looked at, and says "okay, what things are related, tangentically or mostly, to what this person has seen?"

ON THE OTHER HAND, I can't recall any time since King Herod the Great's Idumean grandfather was forced to convert because his homeland was conquered, that Israel practiced forced anything.

I don't know how to make you understand that this is my whole point.

that Herod the Great's grandfather was converted at swordpoint before the Romans ruled Judea? that was your point?

Wow, speaking of "literally hitler"...you're saying anyone who disagrees with you, therefore doesn't understand (because obviously anyone who understands, would agree with you)

This is what I mean:

If you're a public apostate, and anyone who agrees with you is by your definition a public apostate (because you are one)...gee, I wonder if some people are deliberately misunderstanding you.

While I'm very sure you've been supporting Hamas through much of this thread, I'll focus on the rest of your statement:

Your mind has been poisoned by "support" and "opposition" to the point of becoming insensitive to grand strategy. I can only recommend reading more history and possibly playing Diplomacy.

Dude, I was about to retract my statement, as I'd gone back through the thread and re-read all your posts; you did not give overt support to Hamas.

[Linguoboy]

Hamas can't be destroyed, not least because its leader lives in Qatar and can cause trouble that will not affect him personally. But also because Likud brutality produces Hamases. Hamas only took over Gaza in 2006, and though it was active earlier, it only really became important in the 1990s. in the 1980s the Israelis actually regularly talked with Hamas as they were hyper-focused on Fatah....When people are beaten down, they want liberation, but some of them want to see someone fighting back. It seems clear Hamas wants that role, probably in part to discredit Fatah.

As evidence for this: Polling from before the attack shows that Hamas was already losing support among Palestinians within and without Gaza. Who was it going too? Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Lions' Den. The latter is a very new group apparently consisting of younger militants from Fatah, PIJ, and Hamas who wanted to see more of a response to rising Settler violence in the West Bank. They have carried out relatively few attacks but publicised them on social media. Palestinians, especially young people (and most of Gaza is very young), saw them fight back and love them for it.

I now see there’s been a horrific explosion in a Gazan hospital. Israel blames a failed rocket from Islamic Jihad; Hamas blames Israel. The former version seems to be backed up by video evidence of projectiles fired from Gaza, and I also find it more believable — why would anyone target a hospital? That would be really absolutely tragic and beyond belief.

I hesitate to say that anything is "beyond belief" in a war that's gone on for the better part of a century and claimed over 20,000 direct casualties. It would be extremely foolish of Israel to target a hospital. (Maybe on the level of funnelling money to Hamas in order to weaken the PA?) But when you're dropping several hundred bombs a day on a patch of land only slightly larger than Malta, it's not impossible to believe that a couple of them might go astray.

That said, this is even more likely to happen when you're firing rockets without the benefit of sophisticated targeting systems and air superiority. So I find it quite plausible that PIJ is responsible and trying to evade blame. Unfortunately it's very hard to investigate either claim at the moment; for most practical purposes, it doesn't matter much. Either way, those people are dead. And even if it could be proven without a shadow of doubt that the rockets that killed them were Palestinian, there will still be plenty of people who will say that they never would have been fired in the first place if Israel weren't currently bombing Gaza to rubble.

Either way, one thing’s for certain: for average Jews like me, life is going to get steadily more unsafe.

Not just for Jews. In case you missed it, a Palestinian boy living in a suburb of Chicago was stabbed 26 times by an elderly man who was reportedly influenced by right-wing radio. His young mother was stabbed 12 times. To say things just got more tense for the Palestinian community out here is an understatement.

[rotting bones]

I hesitate to say that anything is "beyond belief" in a war that's gone on for the better part of a century and claimed over 20,000 direct casualties. It would be extremely foolish of Israel to target a hospital. (Maybe on the level of funnelling money to Hamas in order to weaken the PA?) But when you're dropping several hundred bombs a day on a patch of land only slightly larger than Malta, it's not impossible to believe that a couple of them might go astray.

That said, this is even more likely to happen when you're firing rockets without the benefit of sophisticated targeting systems and air superiority. So I find it quite plausible that PIJ is responsible and trying to evade blame. Unfortunately it's very hard to investigate either claim at the moment; for most practical purposes, it doesn't matter much. Either way, those people are dead. And even if it could be proven without a shadow of doubt that the rockets that killed them were Palestinian, there will still be plenty of people who will say that they never would have been fired in the first place if Israel weren't currently bombing Gaza to rubble.

I heard there has been more evidence that the rocket wasn't Israeli. While Israel's rockets are much more precise than those of most regional powers, Israel's rockets have killed a journalist in Lebanon IIRC.

Not just for Jews. In case you missed it, a Palestinian boy living in a suburb of Chicago was stabbed 26 times by an elderly man who was reportedly influenced by right-wing radio. His young mother was stabbed 12 times. To say things just got more tense for the Palestinian community out here is an understatement.

There have also been hate crimes against Sikhs and anyone perceived to be "Muslim" generally. I wonder what Ibn Arabi's comprehensive interpretation of the divine plan would have to say about this.

Capitalism educates people so poorly that you can't even have overly negative coverage on Israel in America, since that would increase Antisemitism. Antisemitism is a bigger problem than Islamophobia because if the right agrees on Jews being the bad guys, that would create a big tent Nazi alliance against the left.