Zompist Bboard Again

malloc wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2026 10:00 pm I have read some alarming news that AI is solving mathematical conjectures that have stumped human mathematicians for decades. That sounds like indisputable evidence that AI is more than just smoke and mirrors and indeed that it may be getting smarter than even the smartest humans.

not this again...

malloc wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2026 10:00 pm I have read some alarming news that AI is solving mathematical conjectures that have stumped human mathematicians for decades. That sounds like indisputable evidence that AI is more than just smoke and mirrors and indeed that it may be getting smarter than even the smartest humans.

This is something I’ve been following in a peripheral way. It’s true but comes with caveats which the press isn’t good at reporting (because they don’t actually know much about mathematics). In general, the proofs still need a great deal of human cleaning-up afterwards before they’re actually intelligible or useful to us in any way.

For some well-thought-through suggestions on how to think about these issues, I strongly suggest that you read the Leiden Declaration on Artificial Intelligence and Mathematics, written and endorsed by some of the world’s best mathematicians: https://leidendeclaration.ai/.

Interesting comment on AI from an actual mathematician:
https://bsky.app/profile/did:plc:tnde52 ... dfqfs47s2p

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2026 4:52 amThis is something I’ve been following in a peripheral way. It’s true but comes with caveats which the press isn’t good at reporting (because they don’t actually know much about mathematics). In general, the proofs still need a great deal of human cleaning-up afterwards before they’re actually intelligible or useful to us in any way.

Nonetheless this does destroy the claim that many skeptics make, that AI cannot create anything new but only rearrange elements of its training data randomly. Time and time again, I have heard AI dismissed as a random noise machine that relies on pareidolia to appear meaningful. This latest development proves otherwise.

malloc wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2026 7:49 am Time and time again, I have heard AI dismissed as a random noise machine that relies on pareidolia to appear meaningful. This latest development proves otherwise.

Agreed — it’s definitely more than a ‘stochastic parrot’ (a phrase I’ve come to loathe). Though do keep in mind that that that doesn’t make it an all-powerful superintelligence either.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2026 5:25 am Interesting comment on AI from an actual mathematician:
https://bsky.app/profile/did:plc:tnde52 ... dfqfs47s2p

Almost like a better thought-through version of what I was planning to post.

malloc wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2026 7:49 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2026 4:52 amThis is something I’ve been following in a peripheral way. It’s true but comes with caveats which the press isn’t good at reporting (because they don’t actually know much about mathematics). In general, the proofs still need a great deal of human cleaning-up afterwards before they’re actually intelligible or useful to us in any way.

Nonetheless this does destroy the claim that many skeptics make, that AI cannot create anything new but only rearrange elements of its training data randomly. Time and time again, I have heard AI dismissed as a random noise machine that relies on pareidolia to appear meaningful. This latest development proves otherwise.

You know there are different kinds of "AI" right? That have different uses and different architecture? Like yes, the AI that makes these proofs and LLMs have some commonalities, but they aren't the same things. And, as bradrn said, they still require humans to actually be useful. Just like the AI that finds cancers doctors miss because it was specifically trained on data where doctors did not diagnose a cancer that later was verified cancerous. It still requires a doctor to take a second look and ok the diagnosis. What writing I have seen that comes out of AI that ends up being good (not great but at least passable) requires humans to edit it, because language is not nearly as structured as pure mathematics. And humans still have to look over the math! It might see patterns we miss in the data we feed it, but that data is still verified and fed to AI by humans! It's still "rearranging elements in its training data", it's just not as random as some people seem to assume! It's still not better than humans! It's a tool to catch things we'd otherwise miss, but it's only as good as its training data and it is still a tool.

malloc wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2026 10:00 pmI have read some alarming news that AI is solving mathematical conjectures that have stumped human mathematicians for decades.

Do let us know where you read this, please. A lot of us would find it interesting.

malloc wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2026 10:00 pmThat sounds like indisputable evidence that AI is more than just smoke and mirrors and indeed that it may be getting smarter than even the smartest humans.

There are some things which AI is good at¹, and it shouldn't be surprising that "solving mathematical conjectures" - many of which require much more brain-power than the average human can supply - is among them. How would you feel if AI built upon human research and found a reliable cure for cancer?²

@everyone else: The first link in malloc's signature is worth reading if you want to know where he gets some of ideas from. Interestingly, it's (1) British and (2) left-wing.

¹ Not anything which requires the appearance of creativity, however.
² Or a similar set of traumatic and destructive diseases.

The problem fundamentally is that humans are finding themselves forced out of field after field because of AI, especially the more prestigious and influential fields. We're losing everything from the arts to software engineering to mathematics and the list just keeps growing. Perhaps we will eek out some crude survival working jobs too trivial for AI or spending our whole lives on radically expanded welfare programs (though certainly not in this political climate). Nonetheless humans will no longer be the masters or subjects of civilization but merely pets or beasts of burden. None of us consented to this enormous downgrade and most of us had no idea that it was even taking shape.

Regarding the upcoming Final, Mara Wilson* posted something interesting over on Bluesky:

Talk to anybody from any other Latin American country, and they will tell you that Argentinians basically think that they are Europeans that somehow ended up in the wrong continent, and look down on the rest of them.

I thought it was just Mexicans, but no! Nadie los quiere.

https://bsky.app/profile/marawilson.bsk ... p5tnbzcc2d

Is that true?

*of "Former Hollywood child star who, a while later, as an adult, published an interesting piece about why so many former Hollywood child stars end up washed up and dysfunctional" fame.

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Jul 17, 2026 12:37 am

Mara Wilson wrote: Talk to anybody from any other Latin American country, and they will tell you that Argentinians basically think that they are Europeans that somehow ended up in the wrong continent, and look down on the rest of them.

Is that true?

Oh yes. Though to be more precise this is true of Porteños, i.e., inhabitants of Buenos Aires.

Somewhere I have a printout of Argentine jokes. Two I remember:

How do you make a fortune? Buy an Argentine for what he's worth, and sell him for what he thinks he's worth.

Clinton is visiting Menem (this joke is old) at the Pink House, the presidential palace. Clinton need to make a call to Washington-- no problem, it'll cost $100. He then needs to call Gorbachev; also no problem, though it will cost $1000. Then he needs to call God. This costs a dollar.
"Why so cheap?" he asks Menem.
"Oh, it's a local call."

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Jul 17, 2026 1:31 am
Somewhere I have a printout of Argentine jokes. Two I remember:

How do you make a fortune? Buy an Argentine for what he's worth, and sell him for what he thinks he's worth.

Clinton is visiting Menem (this joke is old) at the Pink House, the presidential palace. Clinton need to make a call to Washington-- no problem, it'll cost $100. He then needs to call Gorbachev; also no problem, though it will cost $1000. Then he needs to call God. This costs a dollar.
"Why so cheap?" he asks Menem.
"Oh, it's a local call."

Lol. Thank you!

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Jul 17, 2026 1:31 am
How do you make a fortune? Buy an Argentine for what he's worth, and sell him for what he thinks he's worth.

The Belgians have the same joke about the French.

Another one I like: 'How do you kill a Frenchman? Aim ten centimeters above the head, straight at the superiority complex.'

malloc wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2026 10:00 pm I have read some alarming news that AI is solving mathematical conjectures that have stumped human mathematicians for decades. That sounds like indisputable evidence that AI is more than just smoke and mirrors and indeed that it may be getting smarter than even the smartest humans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ8KThKAfbs

TLDW: AIs are good at recognizing similarities and relations between obscure problems/papers in order to build up to solving another problem, but the proof still had to be done by a human. AI is basically just a glorified way of doing "If you like X, you'll probably also like Y!". Also, Lean, the proof language, was made by humans, not AI.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2026 1:32 pm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sama-Bajau (They are also Muslim. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Islam is the favorite religion of nomadic peoples in Eurasia who have been in extensive contact with civilization.)

It occurs to me that pre-modern nomadic peoples couldn't actually have been Christian in its Western form and self-sufficient at the same time. Even if they managed to gather all the accoutrements of ceremonial magic, where would they have gotten the wine? They were nomads. They didn't have grapes. Could wine have been substituted with fermented mare's milk?

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2026 6:20 am
It occurs to me that pre-modern nomadic peoples couldn't actually have been Christian in its Western form and self-sufficient at the same time. Even if they managed to gather all the accoutrements of ceremonial magic, where would they have gotten the wine? They were nomads. They didn't have grapes. Could wine have been substituted with fermented mare's milk?

Well, the teetotal versions of Protestantism have already traditionally substituted wine with unfermented grape juice, and, while we're at it, calling a communion wafer a type of "bread" is probably stretching definitions to the limit, too, so mare's milk, fermented or not, wouldn't really go that much farther than that.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2026 6:27 am Well, the teetotal versions of Protestantism have already traditionally substituted wine with unfermented grape juice, and, while we're at it, calling a communion wafer a type of "bread" is probably stretching definitions to the limit, too, so mare's milk, fermented or not, wouldn't really go that much farther than that.

Protestantism is very far removed from the concerns of traditional Christianity. The problem is that wine was part of a ritual that was thought to produce magical effects. For example, the redness of the wine is associated with the redness of blood in a system of sympathetic magic. Similarly, the buzz of intoxication that removes you from your present condition is associated with the salvific power of Christ. Traditional Christians have called Protestant teetotalers "Muslims".

Fermented mare's milk is just not the same. You might as well have a Catholic mass with a cup of yogurt.

Also, if you read accounts of what Christians were fighting over in medieval times, it's all about how other groups were doing the rites differently. (Edit: Ok, this is an exaggeration. There were doctrinal fights too. I just get the impression that they were less common in the overall scheme of things.)

Regarding associations: Islam values intellectual activity so much, some Sufi sects traditionally regard coffee as a holy drink.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2026 6:52 am Regarding associations: Islam values intellectual activity so much, some Sufi sects traditionally regard coffee as a holy drink.

Now that's a doctrine I can get behind.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2026 6:52 am Also, if you read accounts of what Christians were fighting over in medieval times, it's all about how other groups were doing the rites differently. (Edit: Ok, this is an exaggeration. There were doctrinal fights too. I just get the impression that they were less common in the overall scheme of things.)

I thought that was mostly pretexts for various political struggles centered around things such as the power of the Pope or the Emperor.