Zompist Bboard Again

Ugh. That is awful.

This UK LFI group really is a wonderful bunch of people.

How charming.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat May 10, 2025 7:15 am Sorry for reviving this thread after such a long intermission, but I just have to note how sick* I find this: Pro-Israel guy in the UK claims that starving people is good for them because it reduces obesity: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/ ... ty-in-gaza

Rest assured that I find it just as awful. So would every Zionist I know, I suspect.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat May 10, 2025 10:09 pm Rest assured that I find it just as awful. So would every Zionist I know, I suspect.

I considered putting this in the English Questions thread, but given the political sense I suspect it will fit better here.

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How exactly would you define a Zionist¹. I'm rather skeptical of actually looking this one up, because people who are interested in defining Zionist are likely to have an agenda of some kind, and usually seem to have an inherant morality implied in their definition.

I am aware of 3 modern uses of the word

• A reasonable, sensible person who supports the existance of Israel in the face of [insert current bad thing done by Hamas or other Palestinian group to Israel/Israelis]
• An evil, horrible person who supports everything the Israeli government is doing in its [insert current bad thing done by Israeli government to Palestinians]
• A dog-whistle for Jew, sometimes³ merged with the preceding

As well as the historical

• Person who supports Jewish immigration to Mandatory Palestine (and predecessors), or the creation of a Jewish⁴ state in that region

But I've never actually had a good understanding of what a modern-day Zionist is⁵, and since yours doesn't seem to neatly fit into any of the uses above, I would like a modern, less partisan definition if possible.

¹ In the sense in which you are describing you and/or people you know²
² The quoted sentence is unclear on that front, not that it needed to be for what you were saying
³ To be very clear, I have approximately zero idea of how common this particular charming use is, but I'm aware of it as a use, and anti-semitism being what it is, I'd be pleasantly surprised if the total occurances were near zero
⁴ Or not entirely Arab?
⁵ Even English Wiktionary goes from the historical use straight to “(Internet slang, chiefly derogatory or euphemistic, sometimes offensive) A Jewish person or an Israeli”

I'd say in our time, it comes down to the argument between the three definitions you list. And I don't think it's possible to give a "purely linguistic" definition of politically loaded terms.

(This might be another case where zompist's old "Never define" rant is relevant: https://www.zompist.com/rants05.html#6)

That's fair. I suppose I was asking more what do you intend to convey by using the word Zionist, because its politicisation has entirely robbed it of meaning other than signalling a political camp and I want to understand what you wanted to convey by using it¹. Of course it's going to be limited, incomplete, and not particularly useful, but hopefully less so than my already known about uses.

¹ Although, now I think about it some more, it probably was signifying a political camp – a nebulous cluster of people who ‘support Israel’ in any one of many ways, but it's too late now.

Lērisama wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 5:59 am How exactly would you define a Zionist¹. I'm rather skeptical of actually looking this one up, because people who are interested in defining Zionist are likely to have an agenda of some kind, and usually seem to have an inherant morality implied in their definition.

I am aware of 3 modern uses of the word

• A reasonable, sensible person who supports the existance of Israel in the face of [insert current bad thing done by Hamas or other Palestinian group to Israel/Israelis]
• An evil, horrible person who supports everything the Israeli government is doing in its [insert current bad thing done by Israeli government to Palestinians]
• A dog-whistle for Jew, sometimes³ merged with the preceding

As well as the historical

• Person who supports Jewish immigration to Mandatory Palestine (and predecessors), or the creation of a Jewish⁴ state in that region

But I've never actually had a good understanding of what a modern-day Zionist is⁵, and since yours doesn't seem to neatly fit into any of the uses above, I would like a modern, less partisan definition if possible.

All of these feel somewhat slanted. To me, Zionism is simply about supporting the continued existence of Israel as a Jewish state. It doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with supporting any particular Israeli government, or for that matter opposing any particular Palestinian group (though it would seem contradictory to, say, support Hamas and Israel at the same time). And it certainly has nothing to do with one’s own religion.

That said, I agree with Raphael that definitions become tricky in these sorts of intense political discussions. I’m sure you can find people who have used the term ‘Zionist’ in all four of those senses you list.

(I’m pretty sure this topic has come up in this thread before, though I’m not going to bother finding it again just right now.)

Thank you.

(I have a vague memory of that too, but I also wasn't going to search through >500 dense posts to find it, especially since it was very vague and possibly misremembered)

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 7:38 am

Lērisama wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 5:59 am How exactly would you define a Zionist¹. I'm rather skeptical of actually looking this one up, because people who are interested in defining Zionist are likely to have an agenda of some kind, and usually seem to have an inherant morality implied in their definition.

I am aware of 3 modern uses of the word

• A reasonable, sensible person who supports the existance of Israel in the face of [insert current bad thing done by Hamas or other Palestinian group to Israel/Israelis]
• An evil, horrible person who supports everything the Israeli government is doing in its [insert current bad thing done by Israeli government to Palestinians]
• A dog-whistle for Jew, sometimes³ merged with the preceding

As well as the historical

• Person who supports Jewish immigration to Mandatory Palestine (and predecessors), or the creation of a Jewish⁴ state in that region

But I've never actually had a good understanding of what a modern-day Zionist is⁵, and since yours doesn't seem to neatly fit into any of the uses above, I would like a modern, less partisan definition if possible.

All of these feel somewhat slanted. To me, Zionism is simply about supporting the continued existence of Israel as a Jewish state. It doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with supporting any particular Israeli government, or for that matter opposing any particular Palestinian group (though it would seem contradictory to, say, support Hamas and Israel at the same time). And it certainly has nothing to do with one’s own religion.

That said, I agree with Raphael that definitions become tricky in these sorts of intense political discussions. I’m sure you can find people who have used the term ‘Zionist’ in all four of those senses you list.

(I’m pretty sure this topic has come up in this thread before, though I’m not going to bother finding it again just right now.)

It seems that while your definition is probably the most neutral current definition, the use of 'Zionist' as a derogatory term meaning 'Jew' or 'Israeli' is really common in practice, which is really unfortunate as your definition is probably the most useful current one and we don't need more slurs for Jews.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 10:01 am It seems that while your definition is probably the most neutral current definition, the use of 'Zionist' as a derogatory term meaning 'Jew' or 'Israeli' is really common in practice, which is really unfortunate as your definition is probably the most useful current one and we don't need more slurs for Jews.

Yes, agreed. Its use as a slur simply muddies the waters and makes it well-nigh impossible to have reasonable conversations.

(For that matter, the same goes for the anti-Palestinian use of ‘you’re not a true Zionist if you ever criticise Israel’.)

My own rule of thumb is that if the source is Jewish, they mean something close to bradrn's definition. If the source is not Jewish, it's probably a slur.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon May 12, 2025 1:39 pm My own rule of thumb is that if the source is Jewish, they mean something close to bradrn's definition. If the source is not Jewish, it's probably a slur.

Yeah, that is pretty close to how I see it too.