Zompist Bboard Again

alice wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2026 2:40 pm

malloc wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2026 3:30 pmIt never made much sense to me, though, that Greek would have a letter for such a specific combination but not other combinations of sigma and another consonant.

You're not alone. I thought that perhaps zeta used to represent /ts/ in symmetry with psi and xi, and indeed used it as such in a Greek orthography for one of my conlangs.

Yes, but also, didn't many instances of ζ derive from /dj/? The shift from /dj/ to /dz/ seems quite reasonable, a case of assibilation, whereas /dj/ to /zd/ would also require metathesis.

Man in Space wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2026 5:02 pm Polish with c cz ć/ci vs. dz drz/dż dź/dzi…

Older Romance has had a sort of asymmetric influence, where ⟨c⟩ widely came to mean voiceless sibilant affricates (as in Latin-script Slavic languages and older German) while the same largely did not happen outside of Romance for ⟨g⟩ except in the case of Anglic and to a lesser extent older Dutch (conversely, ⟨g⟩ under the influence of older English came to mean /j/ in both older Low German and older Latin-script Slavic).

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2026 5:29 pm (conversely, ⟨g⟩ under the influence of older English came to mean /j/ in both older Low German and older Latin-script Slavic)

Oh? I had no idea older English orthography had any influence on other languages.

malloc wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2026 5:28 pm

alice wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2026 2:40 pm

malloc wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2026 3:30 pmIt never made much sense to me, though, that Greek would have a letter for such a specific combination but not other combinations of sigma and another consonant.

You're not alone. I thought that perhaps zeta used to represent /ts/ in symmetry with psi and xi, and indeed used it as such in a Greek orthography for one of my conlangs.

Yes, but also, didn't many instances of ζ derive from /dj/? The shift from /dj/ to /dz/ seems quite reasonable, a case of assibilation, whereas /dj/ to /zd/ would also require metathesis.

In that case you're going back into Proto-Greek, which predates the Greek alphabet.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2026 5:30 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2026 5:29 pm (conversely, ⟨g⟩ under the influence of older English came to mean /j/ in both older Low German and older Latin-script Slavic)

Oh? I had no idea older English orthography had any influence on other languages.

I know that older Low German spelling was influenced by older English spelling, and I'd bet older Latin-script Slavic writing was influenced by that in turn.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2026 5:31 pm

malloc wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2026 5:28 pm

alice wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2026 2:40 pm

You're not alone. I thought that perhaps zeta used to represent /ts/ in symmetry with psi and xi, and indeed used it as such in a Greek orthography for one of my conlangs.

Yes, but also, didn't many instances of ζ derive from /dj/? The shift from /dj/ to /dz/ seems quite reasonable, a case of assibilation, whereas /dj/ to /zd/ would also require metathesis.

In that case you're going back into Proto-Greek, which predates the Greek alphabet.

But yeah, I had similar thoughts ─ /dj/ to /dz/ on the surface seems far more reasonable than /dj/ to /zd/.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2026 6:15 pm But yeah, I had similar thoughts ─ /dj/ to /dz/ on the surface seems far more reasonable than /dj/ to /zd/.

cf.
- Church Slavonic *ť *ď > št žd: pre-PSl. *vět-je > *vȅťь > veštĭ (cf. ве́че), PBSl. *-ītjas > PSl. *-iťь > -ištь (cf. Serbo-Croatian -ić), PIE *h₁édyeh₂ > PBSl. *ḗˀdjāˀ > PSl. *ě̀ďa > jažda (cf. Lith. ė́džia "horse food", Lat. inedia "fasting")
- Savoyard (PDF) ts- > st- (stanta < Lat. cantare, stin ~ chien)
- sporadic metathesis of coda Ps clusters in English
- (IIRC) vacillation between /st/ and /ts/ in NEC

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2026 9:40 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2026 6:15 pm But yeah, I had similar thoughts ─ /dj/ to /dz/ on the surface seems far more reasonable than /dj/ to /zd/.

cf.
- Church Slavonic *ť *ď > št žd: pre-PSl. *vět-je > *vȅťь > veštĭ (cf. ве́че), PBSl. *-ītjas > PSl. *-iťь > -ištь (cf. Serbo-Croatian -ić), PIE *h₁édyeh₂ > PBSl. *ḗˀdjāˀ > PSl. *ě̀ďa > jažda (cf. Lith. ė́džia "horse food", Lat. inedia "fasting")
- Savoyard (PDF) ts- > st- (stanta < Lat. cantare, stin ~ chien)
- sporadic metathesis of coda Ps clusters in English
- (IIRC) vacillation between /st/ and /ts/ in NEC

Tis true -- I was indeed thinking of OCS here.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2026 1:46 pmFair. It also translates badly into German - indisch just means 'Indian'. Probably, the same problem exists in other languages as well.

In Dutch it's even worse, as "Indisch" refers to Dutch India ("Nederlands Indië"), which is Indonesia.


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Mon Jun 08, 2026 5:02 am

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2026 1:46 pmFair. It also translates badly into German - indisch just means 'Indian'. Probably, the same problem exists in other languages as well.

In Dutch it's even worse, as "Indisch" refers to Dutch India ("Nederlands Indië"), which is Indonesia.

Yes, I have found that in a travel guide to Amsterdam years ago. Indisch is 'Indonesian', 'Indian' is Indiaas, if I remember correctly.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 08, 2026 5:49 amYes, I have found that in a travel guide to Amsterdam years ago. Indisch is 'Indonesian', 'Indian' is Indiaas, if I remember correctly.

Correct. See e.g. here. Note that "Indisch" specifically refers to colonial Dutch India. For reference to Indonesia, we use "Indonesisch".


JAL

Historically, here in the US Indian commonly referred to the indigenous people of the Americas, whereas today it more commonly (at least in the circles I live in and interact with) refers to people and things pertaining to the country of India, and if you wanted to clarify out of context that you were speaking of the indigenous people of the US* you would have to say Native American, American Indian, or simply indigenous (conversely, if there were any confusion and you wanted to speak of people or things related to India you would say Indian Indian).

* Note that this does not apply to the Polynesian people of the Hawaiian Islands, who are referred to as Native Hawaiians not American Indians and usually not Native Americans.

What are features of your native language that, despite being part of the standard variety pertinant to one's location, sound distinctly accented to you?

I ask because General American proper lacks raising of PRICE and START and palatalization/affrication in words like restaurant, history, and factory, but anyone who lacks any of these (even in high registers) sounds distinctly foreign (as in foreign to the Great Lakes region) to me, much more so than other features such as a lack of the NCVS or even using y'all.

Since you mention “y’all”…

When I lived in Oklahoma, starting at age 17, I picked up “y’all” and positive “anymore”. After graduating and moving back to Cleveland, I still employed “y’all” for a few years, but ended up abandoning it because it sounded too out of place, like I was trying too hard and was being obnoxious by using it. Positive “anymore”, which I cannot recall ever having heard until I was in Oklahoma but Baader-Meinhof is a thing, seems to have become firmly present and used (if somewhat infrequently) by people back at home.

EDIT: I just thought of this…when I was in college and for a few years thereafter, My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic was on air, and Applejack famously would drop “y’all” so often you’d think they gave her VA bonuses for it. I admit, I was, and still am, a brony; I wonder if maybe the decline of that fandom in prominence over the Internet had something to do with it…

I have a coworker originally from Texas that drops y'all all the time, even though at work at least he speaks otherwise very straight GA. (He has said that he has more of a Texan accent when he speaks with his brother.)

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2026 8:30 amI have a coworker originally from Texas that drops y'all all the time, even though at work at least he speaks otherwise very straight GA. (He has said that he has more of a Texan accent when he speaks with his brother.)

Interestingly enough, I have noticed many otherwise northern or even Canadian youtubers use "y'all" regularly. It has always baffled me since they don't otherwise sound southern and otherwise have no fondness for the South.

malloc wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2026 9:54 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2026 8:30 amI have a coworker originally from Texas that drops y'all all the time, even though at work at least he speaks otherwise very straight GA. (He has said that he has more of a Texan accent when he speaks with his brother.)

Interestingly enough, I have noticed many otherwise northern or even Canadian youtubers use "y'all" regularly. It has always baffled me since they don't otherwise sound southern and otherwise have no fondness for the South.

I'd never heard anyone use y'all so much IRL before I met this guy. If he actually spoke with a Texan accent it would stand out less.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2026 9:16 pm What are features of your native language that, despite being part of the standard variety pertinant to one's location, sound distinctly accented to you?

Lekha "to write". I picked up my father's Bardhaman dialect lækha. I was in the final year of school or the first year of college until people called me out on it.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2026 9:16 pm What are features of your native language that, despite being part of the standard variety pertinant to one's location, sound distinctly accented to you?

START [ɑɹ] ~ [äɹ] (as opposed to something like [ɒɹ])

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2026 6:34 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2026 9:16 pm What are features of your native language that, despite being part of the standard variety pertinant to one's location, sound distinctly accented to you?

START [ɑɹ] ~ [äɹ] (as opposed to something like [ɒɹ])

[äɹ] for START feels too fronted to my ears -- it almost sounds as if someone is trying to pronounce TRAP followed by /r/ to me.