Zompist Bboard Again

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Aug 20, 2025 10:10 pm IIRC, in English grammar this is generally called ‘secondary predication’.

EDIT: actually, that’s something slightly different. Looking more closely at your examples, those are just ordinary ditransitive verbs taking two objects.

Cool, thanks! I didn't know about this concept, nor about attributive ditransitive verbs, so that's quite interesting.

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Aug 20, 2025 10:10 pm

Flau wrote: ↑Wed Aug 20, 2025 11:57 am I was looking at Zompist's page on Flaidish and came across this sentence:

ʔok garse ʔelzichpo, ʔok ʔozse festpo ʔaax
I if-ONG disobey-PART, I get-ONG paint-PART blue
If I disobeyed, I'd be painted blue

Memorable enough in itself, the sentence also made me wonder about the syntactic role of "blue", or generally of Y in phrases like "to make X Y". If I had to guess, I would say it's an adverbial, but it doesn't really modify the verb - it sounds more like an argument of it. Does anyone more knowledgeable on syntax have a definite answer?

IIRC, in English grammar this is generally called ‘secondary predication’.

EDIT: actually, that’s something slightly different. Looking more closely at your examples, those are just ordinary ditransitive verbs taking two objects.

I'd call it a resultative (and some websites agree). It's not a distransitive, because "blue" is not an NP. (It could be, but compare sentences like "I hammered the metal flat." or "Reacher shot him dead." or "He cuts his hair short.")

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Aug 21, 2025 1:48 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Aug 20, 2025 10:10 pm

Flau wrote: ↑Wed Aug 20, 2025 11:57 am I was looking at Zompist's page on Flaidish and came across this sentence:

ʔok garse ʔelzichpo, ʔok ʔozse festpo ʔaax
I if-ONG disobey-PART, I get-ONG paint-PART blue
If I disobeyed, I'd be painted blue

Memorable enough in itself, the sentence also made me wonder about the syntactic role of "blue", or generally of Y in phrases like "to make X Y". If I had to guess, I would say it's an adverbial, but it doesn't really modify the verb - it sounds more like an argument of it. Does anyone more knowledgeable on syntax have a definite answer?

IIRC, in English grammar this is generally called ‘secondary predication’.

EDIT: actually, that’s something slightly different. Looking more closely at your examples, those are just ordinary ditransitive verbs taking two objects.

I'd call it a resultative (and some websites agree). It's not a distransitive, because "blue" is not an NP. (It could be, but compare sentences like "I hammered the metal flat." or "Reacher shot him dead." or "He cuts his hair short.")

Fair enough. Though this does mean I got it right the first time: I’d call all of those ‘secondary predictions’, which indeed is a variety of resultative construction.

(I guess I got confused by the reference to ‘make’, which can take NPs. And I think I’ve seen at least one analysis which treats them similarly.)

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Aug 21, 2025 2:00 am

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Aug 21, 2025 1:48 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Aug 20, 2025 10:10 pm

IIRC, in English grammar this is generally called ‘secondary predication’.

EDIT: actually, that’s something slightly different. Looking more closely at your examples, those are just ordinary ditransitive verbs taking two objects.

I'd call it a resultative (and some websites agree). It's not a distransitive, because "blue" is not an NP. (It could be, but compare sentences like "I hammered the metal flat." or "Reacher shot him dead." or "He cuts his hair short.")

Fair enough. Though this does mean I got it right the first time: I’d call all of those ‘secondary predictions’, which indeed is a variety of resultative construction.

(I guess I got confused by the reference to ‘make’, which can take NPs. And I think I’ve seen at least one analysis which treats them similarly.)

From Wikipedia's description, the resultative sounds right for the initial example - thanks.

Admittedly, I was also conflating two separate things from the start. As you say, "make" was probably a confusing example since it can take both nouns and adjectives as object complements, while on closer investigation most other verbs can't.

I just realized why “Little Miss Muffet” never really made sense to me—it’s because I speak Inland North.

[ˈlɪɾl̴̩ mɪs ˈməfɨʔ | sæʔ ɒ̃ hɻ̩ ˈtʰəfɨʔ | ˈʔiɾĩŋ‿ɻ̩ kʰɻ̩dz‿n̩ weɪ̯ ‖ ʔəˈlɒ̃ŋ‿kʰẽɪ̯̃m‿ə ˈspəɪ̯ɾɻ̩ | hʊ sæʔ dãʊ̯̃m‿biˈsaɪ̯ɾ‿ɻ̩ ‖ n̩ skɛɻd̚ mɪs ˈməfɨʔ‿əˈweɪ̯]

My spider has Canadian raising and whey and way are homophonous to me, spoiling the first rhyme and making the second into a weak rhyme. Thirty years this has vexed me…

I am used to rhymes and songs requiring pronunciations of words that are slightly different from how I would normally pronounce them myself. For instance, there is one song (which I can't remember for the life of me right now), where again has to be /əˈɡeɪn/ even though I am used to the pronunciation of /əˈɡɛn/ and the former pronunciation is distinctly foreign to me.

Man in Space wrote: ↑Sun Aug 24, 2025 7:41 pm I just realized why “Little Miss Muffet” never really made sense to me—it’s because I speak Inland North.

[ˈlɪɾl̴̩ mɪs ˈməfɨʔ | sæʔ ɒ̃ hɻ̩ ˈtʰəfɨʔ | ˈʔiɾĩŋ‿ɻ̩ kʰɻ̩dz‿n̩ weɪ̯ ‖ ʔəˈlɒ̃ŋ‿kʰẽɪ̯̃m‿ə ˈspəɪ̯ɾɻ̩ | hʊ sæʔ dãʊ̯̃m‿biˈsaɪ̯ɾ‿ɻ̩ ‖ n̩ skɛɻd̚ mɪs ˈməfɨʔ‿əˈweɪ̯]

My spider has Canadian raising and whey and way are homophonous to me, spoiling the first rhyme and making the second into a weak rhyme. Thirty years this has vexed me…

For the sake of comparison, this is the version I am familiar with and how I would pronounce it:

[ˈʟ̞ɨːɯ̯ ˌmɨs ˈmʌfɘʔ | ˈsɛ ãː ə ˈtʰʌfɘʔ | ˈiɘ̃ ʁ̩ˤ ˈkʰʁ̩ˤːts ɘ̃ ˌwe̞ ‖ əˈɰɒ̃ŋ ˈkʰẽ̞ːm ə ˈspəe̯ʁ̩ˤː | u ˈsɛʔ ˌtɑ̃ɔ̃m pɘˈsae̯ ʁ̩ˤː | ɛ̃ ˈfʁˤə̆ĕ̯ʔn̩ːt ˌmɨs ˈmʌfɘ əˈwe̞]

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Aug 24, 2025 10:19 pmFor the sake of comparison, this is the version I am familiar with and how I would pronounce it:

[ˈʟ̞ɨːɯ̯ ˌmɨs ˈmʌfɘʔ | ˈsɛ ãː ə ˈtʰʌfɘʔ | ˈiɘ̃ ʁ̩ˤ ˈkʰʁ̩ˤːts ɘ̃ ˌwe̞ ‖ əˈɰɒ̃ŋ ˈkʰẽ̞ːm ə ˈspəe̯ʁ̩ˤː | u ˈsɛʔ ˌtɑ̃ɔ̃m pɘˈsae̯ ʁ̩ˤː | ɛ̃ ˈfʁˤə̆ĕ̯ʔn̩ːt ˌmɨs ˈmʌfɘ əˈwe̞]

Thank you, I was tacitly hoping you were going to post this!

I want to play too! Total accuracy not guaranteed.

[lɪɾɫ mɪs mʌfɪt / sæd ən ə tʰʌfɪt / iɾɪŋ hɹ̩ kʰɹ̩dz n̩ we / əlɔŋ kʰem ə spajɾ ɹ̩ / hu sæʔ dawm bəsajɾɹ̩ / n̩ fraijʔn̩: mɪs mʌfɪɾ əwe ]

For a non-American perspective (accuracy also not guaranteed):

[ˈɫɪɾʊ mɨs ˈmɐfəʔt̚ / ˈsæt̚‿n̩‿ə ˈtˢɐfəʔt̚ / ˈʔiɾɨŋ‿əˑ kʰəːd̥z̥ ən wæ͡ɪ / wə̆nˠ‿ɫ̩ˈɫɔŋ kʰæ͡ɪm‿ə ˈspʌ͡eɾɜ / hɵ sæt̚ tæ͡ɵn pəˈsʌ͡eɾ‿ɜɻʷ‿ / ən ˈfʷɻʷʌ͡eʔᵈn̩d mɨs ˈmɐfəɾ‿əˈwæ͡ɪ]

And for another non-American one (accuracy still not guaranteed)¹²³

[ˈlɪ̰̞̆̆ʔɫ̩ mɪ̆s ˈmɑ̽̆fɪ̰̞̆̆ʔ | ˈsă̰̆ʔ ͡n̩ ͡ɐ ˈtʰɑ̽̆fɪ̰̞̆̆ʔ | ˈɪ̝ɾ̰̊ɪŋ͡ ɐˑ ˈkʰɐːt.z ͡n̩ ˈwɛj ‖ ˌwɛn ͡əˈlɔŋ ˌkʰɛe̝̯m ͡ə ˈspɑ̽jdɐ | ˌhɵ ˈsă̰̆ʔ ͡ɹ̠̥̝ɑ̰̽e̝̰ʔ pə̆̆sɑ̽jd ͡ɐ | ʔn̩ ˈfɹ̠̥̝ɑ̽̆j̰ʔn̩d͡t mɪ̆s ˈmɑ̽̆fɪ̰̞̆̆ʔ ͡əˈwɛj]

¹ I'm pretty sure I have a few lyrical differences to Man In Space, but I'm using the version I know for ease of transcribing.⁴
² Note I'm using [a] for what the IPA thinks it's used for, rather than what everyone actually uses it for, because SSBE is about the one lect this works for, [æ] would give people the wrong idea and [æ̞] looks silly.
³ I may have gone slightly overboard with diacritics
⁴ Edit: it is interesting what differences people have in the rhyme. Man in Space's ‘scared’ for everyone else's ‘frightened’ surprises me most, as that changes the metre, and the Americans' starting the line with ‘along’, in contrast to Bradrn & my⁵ ‘when’.
⁵ I originally put ‘then’, then read Bradrn's ‘when’ and recognised it, so changed it, so probably take that with a grain of salt

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Aug 24, 2025 11:15 pm I want to play too! Total accuracy not guaranteed.

[lɪɾɫ mɪs mʌfɪt / sæd ən ə tʰʌfɪt / iɾɪŋ hɹ̩ kʰɹ̩dz n̩ we / əlɔŋ kʰem ə spajɾ ɹ̩ / hu sæʔ dawm bəsajɾɹ̩ / n̩ fraijʔn̩: mɪs mʌfɪɾ əwe ]

It is interesting that you transcribe [ʌ] for STRUT but don't raise PRICE in the places where I would expect most people who have [ʌ] for STRUT (i.e. people from the Inland North) to do so. Is this convention, or do you really have [ʌ] in these cases?

Lērisama wrote: ↑Mon Aug 25, 2025 5:20 am And for another non-American one (accuracy still not guaranteed)¹²³

[ˈlɪ̰̞̆̆ʔɫ̩ mɪ̆s ˈmɑ̽̆fɪ̰̞̆̆ʔ | ˈsă̰̆ʔ ͡n̩ ͡ɐ ˈtʰɑ̽̆fɪ̰̞̆̆ʔ | ˈɪ̝ɾ̰̊ɪŋ͡ ɐˑ ˈkʰɐːt.z ͡n̩ ˈwɛj ‖ ˌwɛn ͡əˈlɔŋ ˌkʰɛe̝̯m ͡ə ˈspɑ̽jdɐ | ˌhɵ ˈsă̰̆ʔ ͡ɹ̠̥̝ɑ̰̽e̝̰ʔ pə̆̆sɑ̽jd ͡ɐ | ʔn̩ ˈfɹ̠̥̝ɑ̽̆j̰ʔn̩d͡t mɪ̆s ˈmɑ̽̆fɪ̰̞̆̆ʔ ͡əˈwɛj]

It is interesting that you have heterogeneous-voicing obstruent clusters of both the starting voiceless-ending voiced and starting voiced-ending voiceless types.

Lērisama wrote: ↑Mon Aug 25, 2025 5:20 am ¹ I'm pretty sure I have a few lyrical differences to Man In Space, but I'm using the version I know for ease of transcribing.⁴

From looking at the Wiki our variants are the only variants upon Little Miss Muffet.

Lērisama wrote: ↑Mon Aug 25, 2025 5:20 am ² Note I'm using [a] for what the IPA thinks it's used for, rather than what everyone actually uses it for, because SSBE is about the one lect this works for, [æ] would give people the wrong idea and [æ̞] looks silly.

This is more a case in which IPA is deliberately ambiguous. [a] can be both an unrounded low front vowel or an unrounded low central vowel in IPA.

Lērisama wrote: ↑Mon Aug 25, 2025 5:20 am ³ I may have gone slightly overboard with diacritics

My initial thought on seeing your transcription was 'holy diacritics Batman' -- I had to zoom in quite a bit to clearly see what some of the stacked diacritics were.

Lērisama wrote: ↑Mon Aug 25, 2025 5:20 am ⁴ Edit: it is interesting what differences people have in the rhyme. Man in Space's ‘scared’ for everyone else's ‘frightened’ surprises me most, as that changes the metre, and the Americans' starting the line with ‘along’, in contrast to Bradrn & my⁵ ‘when’.

I had never heard the variant with 'scared' before myself.

Lērisama wrote: ↑Mon Aug 25, 2025 5:20 am ⁵ I originally put ‘then’, then read Bradrn's ‘when’ and recognised it, so changed it, so probably take that with a grain of salt

I think I have heard the variant with 'when' before, but it feels more right without it for whatever reason.

[ˈɫid̪ˡɫ̩ ˌmis ˈmafɜ̆ʔ(t̚) | ˈsæɾ ͜ ˌɒn ɜ ˈtˢafɜ̆ʔ(t̚) | ˈʔɘˑi̯dn̩ ɵː ˈkˣɵːdz n̩ ˈwɐˑɪ̯ | ˌðen ɜˈlɔŋ ˌkˣæɪ̯m ɜ ˈspɑˑe̯ɾə | ˌhɘy̯ ˈsæ̆ʔ(t̚) ˌdæˑë̯̆n bɜˈsɑˑe̯ɾ ͜ ə | n̩ ˈfɻ̴ɑe̯ʔtⁿn̩d ~ ˈfɻ̴ɑˑe̯dⁿn̩d ˌmis ˈmafɜɾ ͜ ɜˌwɐˑɪ̯]

Some of those phonetic transcriptions look more like some South-East Asian writing system to me.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Aug 26, 2025 11:14 am

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Aug 24, 2025 11:15 pm I want to play too! Total accuracy not guaranteed.

[lɪɾɫ mɪs mʌfɪt / sæd ən ə tʰʌfɪt / iɾɪŋ hɹ̩ kʰɹ̩dz n̩ we / əlɔŋ kʰem ə spajɾ ɹ̩ / hu sæʔ dawm bəsajɾɹ̩ / n̩ fraijʔn̩: mɪs mʌfɪɾ əwe ]

It is interesting that you transcribe [ʌ] for STRUT but don't raise PRICE in the places where I would expect most people who have [ʌ] for STRUT (i.e. people from the Inland North) to do so. Is this convention, or do you really have [ʌ] in these cases?

If it helps, the Wiktionary US pronunciation of spider matches mine, as does that of tough.

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Aug 26, 2025 7:55 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Aug 26, 2025 11:14 am

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Aug 24, 2025 11:15 pm I want to play too! Total accuracy not guaranteed.

[lɪɾɫ mɪs mʌfɪt / sæd ən ə tʰʌfɪt / iɾɪŋ hɹ̩ kʰɹ̩dz n̩ we / əlɔŋ kʰem ə spajɾ ɹ̩ / hu sæʔ dawm bəsajɾɹ̩ / n̩ fraijʔn̩: mɪs mʌfɪɾ əwe ]

It is interesting that you transcribe [ʌ] for STRUT but don't raise PRICE in the places where I would expect most people who have [ʌ] for STRUT (i.e. people from the Inland North) to do so. Is this convention, or do you really have [ʌ] in these cases?

If it helps, the Wiktionary US pronunciation of spider matches mine, as does that of tough.

I was referring to how what is conventionally transcribed as "[ʌ]" for STRUT really is more like [ɐ] in most English varieties, with Inland North varieties being the odd ones out in that they have true [ʌ] for STRUT.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Aug 26, 2025 11:21 am

Lērisama wrote: ↑Mon Aug 25, 2025 5:20 am And for another non-American one (accuracy still not guaranteed)¹²³

[ˈlɪ̰̞̆̆ʔɫ̩ mɪ̆s ˈmɑ̽̆fɪ̰̞̆̆ʔ | ˈsă̰̆ʔ ͡n̩ ͡ɐ ˈtʰɑ̽̆fɪ̰̞̆̆ʔ | ˈɪ̝ɾ̰̊ɪŋ͡ ɐˑ ˈkʰɐːt.z ͡n̩ ˈwɛj ‖ ˌwɛn ͡əˈlɔŋ ˌkʰɛe̝̯m ͡ə ˈspɑ̽jdɐ | ˌhɵ ˈsă̰̆ʔ ͡ɹ̠̥̝ɑ̰̽e̝̰ʔ pə̆̆sɑ̽jd ͡ɐ | ʔn̩ ˈfɹ̠̥̝ɑ̽̆j̰ʔn̩d͡t mɪ̆s ˈmɑ̽̆fɪ̰̞̆̆ʔ ͡əˈwɛj]

It is interesting that you have heterogeneous-voicing obstruent clusters of both the starting voiceless-ending voiced and starting voiced-ending voiceless types.

[d͡t] surprised me. I think it's the voicing of [n] carrying on a little way into the stop, but phonetically voiceless lenis stop + voiced obstruent is the opporside of surprising.

Lērisama wrote: ↑Mon Aug 25, 2025 5:20 am ² Note I'm using [a] for what the IPA thinks it's used for, rather than what everyone actually uses it for, because SSBE is about the one lect this works for, [æ] would give people the wrong idea and [æ̞] looks silly.

This is more a case in which IPA is deliberately ambiguous. [a] can be both an unrounded low front vowel or an unrounded low central vowel in IPA.

I was under the impression that central/very high F1¹ to a point where F2 isn't contrastive was the more common use for [a], but anyway, less ambiguity isn't a problem.

Lērisama wrote: ↑Mon Aug 25, 2025 5:20 am ³ I may have gone slightly overboard with diacritics

My initial thought on seeing your transcription was 'holy diacritics Batman' -- I had to zoom in quite a bit to clearly see what some of the stacked diacritics were.

Yes, if I weren't doing excessively narrow IPA, I'd do something much more sane, like the following

[ˈlɪ̆ʔɫ̩ mɪ̆s ˈmʌ̆fɪ̆ʔ | ˈsăʔ ͡n̩ ͡ɐ ˈtʰʌ̆fɪ̆ʔ | ˈɪ̆jɾɪŋ͡ ɐˑ ˈkʰɐːt.z ͡n̩ ˈwɛj ‖ ˌwɛn ͡əˈlɔŋ ˌkʰɛjm ͡ə ˈspʌjdɐ | ˌhɵ ˈsăʔ ͡ɹ̥ʌ̆jʔ pə̆ˈsʌjd ͡ɐ | ʔn̩ ˈfɹ̥ʌ̆jʔn̩t mɪ̆s ˈmʌ̆fɪ̆ʔ ͡əˈwɛj]

[/quote]

¹ Is it just me, or does F1 feel backwards to other people?

Speaking of [a], I noticed that I have two different vowel qualities in I'll [a̟(ː)ɯ̯] (an unrounded open front vowel) and doll [d̥a(ː)ɯ̯] (an unrounded open central vowel) even though I typically transcribe them with the same vowel.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Aug 27, 2025 9:19 am Speaking of [a], I noticed that I have two different vowel qualities in I'll [a̟(ː)ɯ̯] (an unrounded open front vowel) and doll [d̥a(ː)ɯ̯] (an unrounded open central vowel) even though I typically transcribe them with the same vowel.

I'll and I'm are both distinctive in AusEng too. Cannonically they both have [ɑˑe̯] (PRICE), which surfaces in I'm in slow speech, but they both tend towards more innovative pronunciations. Unlike other PRICE + /l/ rhymes, I'll is always monosyllabic (outside of very exaggerated emphasis), and both words tend to round the nucleus, lose the offglide, and shorten the nucleus; so I'm is [ɑˑe̯m] ~ [ɒˑe̯m] ~ [ɒːm] ~ [ɒm] and I'll is [ɑˑe̯ɫʷ] ~ [ɑːɫʷ] ~ [ɒːɫʷ] ~ [ɒɫʷ] (plus optional coda vocalisation). All of these things can happen to other instances of PRICE, but these two words are always several steps ahead in a given register.