Zompist Bboard Again

I shall add a note on the word family discussed here. At first glance, the first vowels of *h₁eḱwos and aqua seem to point at different initial laryngeals which would render the etymology invalid, but aqua may be a loanword from an IE language with an *o > a merger, as the language of the Old European Hydronymy appears to have been, so aqua would just be an o-grade formation, and there is no need to posit an initial *h₂ here.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2024 12:55 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2024 10:44 amThis is like how healthy and whole are closely related etymologically.

Not so according to std etymologies.

Just so we stay on the same page here: are you saying that std etymologies are saying that healthy and whole are not closely related?

keenir wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2024 1:52 pm

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2024 12:55 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2024 10:44 amThis is like how healthy and whole are closely related etymologically.

Not so according to std etymologies.

Just so we stay on the same page here: are you saying that std etymologies are saying that healthy and whole are not closely related?

Actually, there is a third word in that word family, hale, which is a dialect borrowing into Standard English from northern Middle English that forms a direct doublet with whole (which reflects the rounding of OE /aː/ to [ɔː] in southern Middle English; note that the <w> is just orthographic, introduced to distinguish it from hole in writing).

Edit: Oh, and I am forgetting health itself, a fourth word in that word family.

Why does Talskubilos object to just about every etymology posted by someone else?

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2024 2:55 pm Why does Talskubilos object to just about every etymology posted by someone else?

maybe a tinge of "if you don't buy my theory, I reject yours!" perhaps?

Zju wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2024 12:59 pm

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2024 12:55 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2024 10:44 amThis is like how healthy and whole are closely related etymologically.

Not so according to std etymologies.

what do you mean?

Sorry, I was mistaken. The only difference is the -th suffix in health.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2024 1:13 pm I shall add a note on the word family discussed here. At first glance, the first vowels of *h₁eḱwos and aqua seem to point at different initial laryngeals which would render the etymology invalid, but aqua may be a loanword from an IE language with an *o > a merger, as the language of the Old European Hydronymy appears to have been, so aqua would just be an o-grade formation, and there is no need to posit an initial *h₂ here.

That's right, but I'm not sure OEH represents a single language. I also think the 'horse' word doesn't belong here.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2024 5:42 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2024 1:13 pm I shall add a note on the word family discussed here. At first glance, the first vowels of *h₁eḱwos and aqua seem to point at different initial laryngeals which would render the etymology invalid, but aqua may be a loanword from an IE language with an *o > a merger, as the language of the Old European Hydronymy appears to have been, so aqua would just be an o-grade formation, and there is no need to posit an initial *h₂ here.

That's right, but I'm not sure OEH represents a single language. I also think the 'horse' word doesn't belong here.

Of course, in such a large area, there'd at least be different dialects. And we have no proof that those names are all from the same stratum. Another possibility is what I call "name protraction": settlers name features of their new homeland after features of their old homeland, which may lead to names being carried beyond the range of the source language. One of my back burner projects is an atlas of the OEH, which may turn up regional differences we don't see yet.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2024 2:00 pm Actually, there is a third word in that word family, hale, which is a dialect borrowing into Standard English from northern Middle English that forms a direct doublet with whole (which reflects the rounding of OE /aː/ to [ɔː] in southern Middle English; note that the <w> is just orthographic, introduced to distinguish it from hole in writing).

Really? The spelling looks like a ghost of the dialect mixture that gave us words like one.

Richard W wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 1:17 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2024 2:00 pm Actually, there is a third word in that word family, hale, which is a dialect borrowing into Standard English from northern Middle English that forms a direct doublet with whole (which reflects the rounding of OE /aː/ to [ɔː] in southern Middle English; note that the <w> is just orthographic, introduced to distinguish it from hole in writing).

Really? The spelling looks like a ghost of the dialect mixture that gave us words like one.

The original OE for ModE one was ān /aːn/ which became /ɔːn/ in southern ME, which irregularly gave rise to ModE /wʌn/ (possibly through dialect borrowing from a ME dialect where breaking of southern ME /ɔː/ was more regular), while the same OE became Scots ane /en/ through a regular change of OE /aː/ to Scots /e/. The relationship of whole and hale is the same here except that southern ME /ɔː/ regularly became ModE /oʊ/ instead in whole. Note that there never was a /ʍ/ or /w/ in whole; this is purely orthographic.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 1:29 pm The relationship of whole and hale is the same here except that southern ME /ɔː/ regularly became ModE /oʊ/ instead in whole. Note that there never was a /ʍ/ or /w/ in whole; this is purely orthographic.

That's not a universal opinion - the contrary was confidently asserted on Cybalist.

Richard W wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 1:52 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 1:29 pm The relationship of whole and hale is the same here except that southern ME /ɔː/ regularly became ModE /oʊ/ instead in whole. Note that there never was a /ʍ/ or /w/ in whole; this is purely orthographic.

That's not a universal opinion - the contrary was confidently asserted on Cybalist.

Forgive my lack of familiarity with the details of traditional EngE dialects. This is an area that I have unfortunately seen little written about (I have read much more about traditional continental West Germanic varieties, in comparison).

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:23 am On the other hand, I already mentioned labials weren't allowed at word final in PB*, and sometimes (although not regularly) disappeared at word initial, being replaced by prosthetic liquids /l-, -r(-)/. Either prosthetic or not, /r/ was replaced by by /d/ (dissimilation) when followed by another rhotic, so in short this is the explanation why the later would correspond to an original /m/, as in uda, udare.

*Spanish phonotactics does the same, so in loanwords such as e.g. the toponym Catalayud < Qalˁat Ayyūb, /b/ was replaced by /d/.

Basque ur 'water' < *ub, with the combinatory (i.e. found in compounds) variant u(h)-, has the odd forms uds, uts, ud-, uid-, und- in Guipuscoan. It appears to be a paleohydronymic root with an apophonic variant *ib- found in ibai 'river' and ibar 'river valley', as well as in Aragonese ibón and Gascon iu, èu, uu(n), bum 'mountain lake'.

There's an interesting exchange of substrate loanwords involving Celtic (Gaulish) and Basque:

- Catalan and Occitan garriga 'garrigue (a type of low scrubland)', garric 'kermes oak (Quercus coccifera)' < Gaulish *karri-kā derives from a substrate root *kars/karr- 'hard', found in the toponyms Karst and the Arabized Spanish Alcarria, as well as in Basque harri 'stone'.

- Likewise, Celtic *tar(r)-tu 'thrist, dryness' (< IE *ters-) has given Catalan tarter (El Tarter in Andorra), which designates a terrain covered with rocks from a mountain slide, but in Basque has derivated to darte, tarta, darthu 'low bush, chaparral; young tree, coppice' and arte 'holm oak (Quercus ilex)'.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Sun May 24, 2026 6:55 am - Catalan and Occitan garriga 'garrigue (a type of low scrubland)', garric 'kermes oak (Quercus coccifera)' < Gaulish *karri-kā derives from a substrate root *kars/karr- 'hard', found in the toponyms Karst and the Arabized Spanish Alcarria, as well as in Basque harri 'stone'.

Umm, karst comes from StG Karst, which is from PSl *korsъ and is related to (but not borrowed from) Slovene Kras (a placename), itself from Italo-Dalmation carsus. Even if you say that carsus is related, you'll have to explain the /s/ rather than just handwaving it away.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun May 24, 2026 7:57 pmUmm, karst comes from StG Karst, which is from PSl *korsъ and is related to (but not borrowed from) Slovene Kras (a placename), itself from Italo-Dalmation carsus. Even if you say that carsus is related, you'll have to explain the /s/ rather than just handwaving it away.

I think the original form was *kars- and then evolved to *karr- in Celtic, with rs > rr as usual. It originally designated calcareous soil, but in Basque drifted to 'stone', probably because this type of terrain is pervasive in the Basque country.

Spanish carrasca 'Iberian holm oak (Quercus rotundifolia)' and Berber akarrus would also derive from this lexeme.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2026 3:45 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun May 24, 2026 7:57 pmUmm, karst comes from StG Karst, which is from PSl *korsъ and is related to (but not borrowed from) Slovene Kras (a placename), itself from Italo-Dalmation carsus. Even if you say that carsus is related, you'll have to explain the /s/ rather than just handwaving it away.

I think the original form was *kars- and then evolved to *karr- in Celtic, with rs > rr as usual. It originally designated calcareous soil, but in Basque drifted to 'stone', probably because this type of terrain is pervasive in the Basque country.

Spanish carrasca 'Iberian holm oak (Quercus rotundifolia)' and Berber akarrus would also derive from this lexeme.

You'll need some evidence to back up this claim that a word in Berber is related...

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2026 8:27 amYou'll need some evidence to back up this claim that a word in Berber is related...

It's also found in Latin cerrus, which has been suggested to be a loanword from Berber, although it looks the other way around.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2026 8:46 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2026 8:27 amYou'll need some evidence to back up this claim that a word in Berber is related...

It's also found in Latin cerrus, which has been suggested to be a loanword from Berber, although it looks the other way around.

From the rest of what you say here, if it has any validity, a Latin to Berber loan is much more plausible than vice versa.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2026 8:57 amFrom the rest of what you say here, if it has any validity, a Latin to Berber loan is much more plausible than vice versa.

Yes, that's right.