Zompist Bboard Again

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:47 pm

Ser wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:37 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:09 pmYes, but it had two common meanings historically - referring to East Asians in a racialist fashion, and referring to people with Down Syndrome - which are now both deprecated.

Yes, dhok knows that, and in fact that's his point: "igboid" and "bantoid" are as bad as "mongoloid". He's saying it's unfortunate African linguistic clade names tend to be like this.

Oh, to be honest, I did not know that "Igboid" or "Bantoid" were meant to be racialist

Wait, they were?

dhok wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:07 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:46 am

dhok wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:35 am Mongoloid

My initial thought when I read this was whether this word was kosher to use in any context...

I mean, Igboid and Bantoid are.

This seems like a "but why can't I use the n-word" sort of argument.

The reason you can't call people "mongoloid" is not because the "-oid" suffix is inherently offensive and must never be used - it just means "-like". It's because the m-word has developed a particular symbolic signficance in our culture, that gives it a - yes, arbitrary, but nonetheless real - outsized power to hurt and offend. And frankly I'm rather uncomfortable that it's being used on this board, even as a 'joke' of some sort.

[fwiw, the -ic naming conventions of Eurasia were indeed formerly found in African studies ("Negritic", "Sudanic", "Nilotic", etc) , but were largely replaced by the -oid conventions, probably at least in part because -ic was seen as racist by association.]

It should be noted that Mongolic does not have the racialist/degrading connotations of "Mongoloid"; all it means is belonging to the Mongolic language group or one of the peoples who speak such a language.

Wait, people don't use "Nilotic" or "Sudanic" anymore? Then what do they call the Central Sudanic and Eastern Sudanic languages? And within Eastern Sudanic, what do they call the Nilotic languages? EDIT: "Sudanoid"? "Nilotoid"? "Niloid"?

Vijay wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:13 pm Wait, people don't use "Nilotic" or "Sudanic" anymore? Then what do they call the Central Sudanic and Eastern Sudanic languages? And within Eastern Sudanic, what do they call the Nilotic languages? EDIT: "Sudanoid"? "Nilotoid"? "Niloid"?

That is my thought too; last time I checked people were still referring to things as "Nilotic" and "Sudanic", and the terms were as neutral as "Mongolic" is.

The key thing we should remember about "Mongoloid" is its history of usage, which is highly racialist, not whether it ends in -"ic" or -"oid" or like.

Vijay wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:13 pm Wait, people don't use "Nilotic" or "Sudanic" anymore? Then what do they call the Central Sudanic and Eastern Sudanic languages? And within Eastern Sudanic, what do they call the Nilotic languages? EDIT: "Sudanoid"? "Nilotoid"? "Niloid"?

OK, I was wrong in that regard.

"Sudanic", a race-based term, was indeed removed, and replaced with "Nilo-Saharan". But Eastern and Central Sudanic have survived for now, re-analysed as geographical terms (but probably not long for this world, as they falsely suggest a close connexion between those two families). It seems that the -ics have remained at lower levels within Nilo-Saharan, even though they've largely been removed from Niger-Congo.

…Getting back on track, I would like to submit that I have been always amused by "self-describing" language names such as Bandjalang, Bambalang, Gunbarlang, Tanglang, Camling, Waling, Wutung, Kalkatungu.

And there was once an Austronesian language called Favorlang.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:59 pm Mongoloid being used to refer to East Asians seems to be considered not as offensive, but there are people who wish that the term be retired in favor of simply East Asian.

That'd be confusing. Are you saying that 'pure' Thais and Yanomami are East Asian?

Richard W wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:25 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:59 pm Mongoloid being used to refer to East Asians seems to be considered not as offensive, but there are people who wish that the term be retired in favor of simply East Asian.

That'd be confusing. Are you saying that 'pure' Thais and Yanomami are East Asian?

But referring to both Thai and Yanomami with the same term, other than just the generic "persons of color"?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:39 pm

Richard W wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:25 pm That'd be confusing. Are you saying that 'pure' Thais and Yanomami are East Asian?

But referring to both Thai and Yanomami with the same term, other than just the generic "persons of color"?

'Person of colour' includes West Africans, so would be rather inappropriate when the natural term would be 'Mongoloid'. Does 'persons of colour' include the Chinese?

...Why do you need a term that includes Thai people and Yanomami people but not West African people?

Whether the Chinese count as "persons of color" or not is a matter of whether one is implicitly grouping them with southeast Asian, south Asian, Amerindian, and black people or one is implicitly grouping them with Europeans; this is significant because when it comes to matters such as perceived privilege, some would group them more with white people than with black people (whether this is valid is another matter).

Just discovered there’s a Papuan language called Goliath. It’s also known as Una, but Wikipedia says that the name ‘Goliath’ is better known, which isn’t too surprising…

Vijay wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:27 pm ...Why do you need a term that includes Thai people and Yanomami people but not West African people?

For prehistorical and anthropological discussions. it may also be relevant in medical-type discussions.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:50 pm It should be noted that Mongolic does not have the racialist/degrading connotations of "Mongoloid"; all it means is belonging to the Mongolic language group or one of the peoples who speak such a language.

According to Wikipedia, the 1911 US census used the term 'Mongolic grand division' to refer to the Asian part of the Mongoloid division of humanity. One just can't rely on a consistent use of suffixes.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'racialist connotations' of 'Mongoloid' - is it just the division of humanity into involuntary groups that bothers you?

Khitan language sounds like something Muslim has to do to their male organ.

The term "Pigeon English" is a source of amusement. I do wonder if 'pigeon' as in "It's not my pigeon" comes from the Chinese-English pidgin.

I'm sure some people must have made play of the notion that Manx and Siamese are cat languages.

Richard W wrote: ↑Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:42 am The term "Pigeon English" is a source of amusement. I do wonder if 'pigeon' as in "It's not my pigeon" comes from the Chinese-English pidgin.

I searched it on google and I only get this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigeon_English