Zompist Bboard Again

What authoritative normative statements are there as to the spelling of non-softening derivatives formed from suffixes starting in 'i' or 'e' of words ending in 'c'? In my youth, I was disturbed by picnicing, though now it seems that practice has swung rather to picnicking. However, that pattern seems based on the rule for doubling final consonants (but independent of stress, as in the British practice for final 'l'), and so not applicable to words like 'orc'. While I do see orkish and Orkish, I think they are rather derived from the written stem ork, rather than from orc. The present participle of to arc still seems to be arcing.

As to Orkish v. orkish, I think that comes down to different capitalisation rules for peoples and languages on one hand and for types of being on the other.

Is grands prix a valid writing of the plural /ɡrɑːnˈpriːz‌/ of grand prix? To me, the 's' is sufficiently French that it silences the final 'x' in English.

Richard W wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2026 4:35 pm Is grands prix a valid writing of the plural /ɡrɑːnˈpriːz‌/ of grand prix? To me, the 's' is sufficiently French that it silences the final 'x' in English.

Not with that pronunciation, no; I’d transcribe that as grand prixs.

Richard W wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2026 4:35 pm Is grands prix a valid writing of the plural /ɡrɑːnˈpriːz‌/ of grand prix? To me, the 's' is sufficiently French that it silences the final 'x' in English.

FWIW, my (American English) dictionary says the plural is Grand Prix but allows the [pri:z] pronunciation. Wiktionary thinks the plural is Grands Prix.

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2026 6:50 pm FWIW, my (American English) dictionary says the plural is Grand Prix but allows the [pri:z] pronunciation. Wiktionary thinks the plural is Grands Prix.

Here in the UK, I've been seeing the latter in advertising for the Sky Sports channel(s), but without noticing the pronunciation. I'm partly checking that the Wiktionary entry should be deleted for lack of quotations, but it's difficult to get quotations for pronunciation, though sometimes they're sorely needed.

Me in the Random Thread, talking about trying to take care of my email inbox:

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2026 9:35 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2026 5:54 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2026 5:42 am Please motivate me to look after my emails.

Just peeked into the mailbox. 222. Not counting threads with several mails.

Down to 147. Took me only almost 4 hours. At this speed, I should be done early in the morning.

Should I have used a different word than "speed"?

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2026 9:47 am Me in the Random Thread, talking about trying to take care of my email inbox:

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2026 9:35 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2026 5:54 am

Just peeked into the mailbox. 222. Not counting threads with several mails.

Down to 147. Took me only almost 4 hours. At this speed, I should be done early in the morning.

Should I have used a different word than "speed"?

‘Rate’ is slightly more idiomatic.

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2026 9:49 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2026 9:47 am
Should I have used a different word than "speed"?

‘Rate’ is slightly more idiomatic.

Thank you!

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2026 9:49 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2026 9:47 am Me in the Random Thread, talking about trying to take care of my email inbox:

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2026 9:35 am

Down to 147. Took me only almost 4 hours. At this speed, I should be done early in the morning.

Should I have used a different word than "speed"?

‘Rate’ is slightly more idiomatic.

Agreed.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2026 9:59 amIs anyone else here aware of people existing with MOUTH pronounced as [ɑ] or [ɑː]? I sporadically hear (and produce) that here, and today in a meeting I heard a coworker twice in close succession pronounce MOUTH as [ɑ(ː)], e.g. in sounds [sɑːnts] (that is one of the exact words he said). Note that I have not observed a merger with FATHER/LOT, as normally here that is [a(ː)].

So that's basically dediphthongization, assuming the start of MOUTH is [ɑ]?

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2026 6:50 pmFWIW, my (American English) dictionary says the plural is Grand Prix but allows the [pri:z] pronunciation. Wiktionary thinks the plural is Grands Prix.

Wiktionary is wrong once more.


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2026 12:21 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2026 9:59 amIs anyone else here aware of people existing with MOUTH pronounced as [ɑ] or [ɑː]? I sporadically hear (and produce) that here, and today in a meeting I heard a coworker twice in close succession pronounce MOUTH as [ɑ(ː)], e.g. in sounds [sɑːnts] (that is one of the exact words he said). Note that I have not observed a merger with FATHER/LOT, as normally here that is [a(ː)].

So that's basically dediphthongization, assuming the start of MOUTH is [ɑ]?

Amongst people my age and older here MOUTH starts with [ɑ], but some younger people here such as my daughter may have it start with [a].

A notable common case here that I and others here often have is pronouncing out of as [ɑə̯].

jal wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2026 12:21 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2026 6:50 pmFWIW, my (American English) dictionary says the plural is Grand Prix but allows the [pri:z] pronunciation. Wiktionary thinks the plural is Grands Prix.

Wiktionary is wrong once more.

Whoever put that in probably took it directly from the French without checking whether any native English-speakers actually use that.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2026 12:36 pm

jal wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2026 12:21 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2026 6:50 pmFWIW, my (American English) dictionary says the plural is Grand Prix but allows the [pri:z] pronunciation. Wiktionary thinks the plural is Grands Prix.

Wiktionary is wrong once more.

Whoever put that in probably took it directly from the French without checking whether any native English-speakers actually use that.

I've definitely seen grands prix in newspaper articles, but I'm not sure how people who write it that way pronounce it.

BTW I have what the OED calls /ɒ̃/ there (i.e. a nasalised version of LOT used for French loans), not /ɑːn/.

anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2026 3:13 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2026 12:36 pm

jal wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2026 12:21 pm
Wiktionary is wrong once more.

Whoever put that in probably took it directly from the French without checking whether any native English-speakers actually use that.

I've definitely seen grands prix in newspaper articles, but I'm not sure how people who write it that way pronounce it.

I would use grands prix and pronounce it homophonous with grand prix [gʁɑ̃.pʁi]. Then again, I have some French knowledge.

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2026 3:30 pm

anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2026 3:13 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2026 12:36 pm
Whoever put that in probably took it directly from the French without checking whether any native English-speakers actually use that.

I've definitely seen grands prix in newspaper articles, but I'm not sure how people who write it that way pronounce it.

I would use grands prix and pronounce it homophonous with grand prix [gʁɑ̃.pʁi]. Then again, I have some French knowledge.

I would write grands prix and pronounce it /ɡræmˈpriz/ [ˌkʁˤɛ̃̆ə̯̃̆mˈpʰʁ̥ˤiːs].

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2026 3:55 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2026 3:30 pm

anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2026 3:13 pm

I've definitely seen grands prix in newspaper articles, but I'm not sure how people who write it that way pronounce it.

I would use grands prix and pronounce it homophonous with grand prix [gʁɑ̃.pʁi]. Then again, I have some French knowledge.

I would write grands prix and pronounce it /ɡræmˈpriz/ [ˌkʁˤɛ̃̆ə̯̃̆mˈpʰʁ̥ˤiːs].

To me that’s just self-contradictory.

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2026 4:14 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2026 3:55 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2026 3:30 pm

I would use grands prix and pronounce it homophonous with grand prix [gʁɑ̃.pʁi]. Then again, I have some French knowledge.

I would write grands prix and pronounce it /ɡræmˈpriz/ [ˌkʁˤɛ̃̆ə̯̃̆mˈpʰʁ̥ˤiːs].

To me that’s just self-contradictory.

That's different registers for you.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2026 12:36 pm

jal wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2026 12:21 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2026 6:50 pmFWIW, my (American English) dictionary says the plural is Grand Prix but allows the [pri:z] pronunciation. Wiktionary thinks the plural is Grands Prix.

Wiktionary is wrong once more.

Whoever put that in probably took it directly from the French without checking whether any native English-speakers actually use that.

Quite possibly. How does one check whether someone with an English name is a native speaker of English? Or indeed, whether the author of a book ever uttered its title except as a quotation (eg. Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone). Quiet Quentin is down, so assembling the 3 quotations and their capitalisations may be a bit tedious.

Jal seems wrong again; if we take all senses and both capitalisations, I can find examples going back to 1878, and in the motor racing sense back to at least to 2007; the latter is in a biography of Michael Schumacher published in the UK.

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2026 4:14 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2026 3:55 pm I would write grands prix and pronounce it /ɡræmˈpriz/ [ˌkʁˤɛ̃̆ə̯̃̆mˈpʰʁ̥ˤiːs].

To me that’s just self-contradictory.

@Travis B, is the pronunciation for when you compose the sentence or also for when you read what someone else wrote?

There is the complication that, in French, the <x> does surface as [z] before vowels.

Richard W wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2026 5:25 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2026 4:14 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2026 3:55 pm I would write grands prix and pronounce it /ɡræmˈpriz/ [ˌkʁˤɛ̃̆ə̯̃̆mˈpʰʁ̥ˤiːs].

To me that’s just self-contradictory.

@Travis B, is the pronunciation for when you compose the sentence or also for when you read what someone else wrote?

There is the complication that, in French, the <x> does surface as [z] before vowels.

The pronunciation is for when I myself would pluralize grand prix in speech or I would quote someone else saying the same. If I were reading written grands prix aloud I would probably say /ɡræmˈpri/ [ˌkʁˤɛ̃̆ə̯̃̆mˈpʰʁ̥ˤi(ː)].