Zompist Bboard Again

Ok, so I think we can conclude that English is unable to properly convey the German term, lacking a way to distinguish "producing wool" from "having woolly fur". :)


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2026 3:04 am Ok, so I think we can conclude that English is unable to properly convey the German term, lacking a way to distinguish "producing wool" from "having woolly fur".

Is Mandarin unable to properly convey events in the past because it lacks a past vs present tense distinction?

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2026 5:20 amIs Mandarin unable to properly convey events in the past because it lacks a past vs present tense distinction?

If you have followed this discussion at all, you know this is a nonsensical comparison.


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2026 7:08 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2026 5:20 amIs Mandarin unable to properly convey events in the past because it lacks a past vs present tense distinction?

If you have followed this discussion at all, you know this is a nonsensical comparison.

How so?

I would say that the phrase “wool bearing”, as in “wool bearing animal” (or possibly “wool-bearing animal”) might carry the meaning that jal is talking about. (A quick Google search also brought up the phrase “wool-yielding”; while it gets the meaning across clearly, I have not encountered this phrase before. “Wool-bearing animal” feels fairly natural to me, and I’m pretty sure I have seen it before, while “wool-yielding animal” feels less natural, and “wool animal” even less so - it almost makes me think of animal made of wool, like a stuffed toy.)

At the same time, I understand the use of “woolly” in the translation above; “wool-bearing” is longer, breaks up the middle of the phrase, and reduces the emotional punch of the expression (especially since “egg-laying” already has to be expressed by two words).

Glenn wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2026 7:45 am I would say that the phrase “wool bearing”, as in “wool bearing animal” (or possibly “wool-bearing animal”) might carry the meaning that jal is talking about. (A quick Google search also brought up the phrase “wool-yielding”; while it gets the meaning across clearly, I have not encountered this phrase before. “Wool-bearing animal” feels fairly natural to me, and I’m pretty sure I have seen it before, while “wool-yielding animal” feels less natural, and “wool animal” even less so - it almost makes me think of animal made of wool, like a stuffed toy.)

At the same time, I understand the use of “woolly” in the translation above; “wool-bearing” is longer, breaks up the middle of the phrase, and reduces the emotional punch of the expression (especially since “egg-laying” already has to be expressed by two words).

Agreed -- to me woolly is more idiomatic than wool-bearing, which has a more technical feel, is more wordy, and lacks emotional punch.

What vowels do people have in the words "paltry" and "poultry"? I have /V/ (STRUT) in both, but just realized that the latter is probably a hypercorrection and should be /o/ (GOAT).

jcb wrote: ↑Sun Jul 05, 2026 3:03 pm What vowels do people have in the words "paltry" and "poultry"? I have /V/ (STRUT) in both, but just realized that the latter is probably a hypercorrection and should be /o/ (GOAT).

I think I have /ɔl/ = LOT + /l/ = register dependent [ɔɫ~ɔw] in both, but it could be /ɔwl/ = GOAT + /l/ = register dependent [ɔwɫ¹~ɔw], because it's quite hard to tell, and I haven't disentangled exactly what happens to /ʌ ɔ əw ɵ ɵw/ = STRUT LOT GOAT FOOT GOOSE before /l/, except that it's probably necessary to consider /ɔw/ phonemic at some level because of minimal pairs like [hɔlɪj həwlɪj hɔwlɪj] ⟨holly holy wholely⟩.

¹ Okay, actually [ɔɫʷ], I think

Edit: no, it's worse. Paltry is in the group of words like Hull² that don't sound wrong with [ʌɫ] in registers where I actually pronounce the [ɫ]. I have no clue what this is in terms of phonemes or lexical sets – my STRUT is more like [ɐ].
² the city and the boat part

jcb wrote: ↑Sun Jul 05, 2026 3:03 pm What vowels do people have in the words "paltry" and "poultry"? I have /V/ (STRUT) in both, but just realized that the latter is probably a hypercorrection and should be /o/ (GOAT).

For poultry I have [o] (giving it a lexical set name is hard because it precedes /l/). I wouldn’t say that paltry is part of my active vocabulary but I think I’d say it with [æ].

[ä] for paltry.
[ʊ] for poultry.

Both are followed by [ɫ]. Odd, given that I have pole [pʰɔɫ] and poultry = pole + tree

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Jul 05, 2026 3:28 pm

jcb wrote: ↑Sun Jul 05, 2026 3:03 pm What vowels do people have in the words "paltry" and "poultry"? I have /V/ (STRUT) in both, but just realized that the latter is probably a hypercorrection and should be /o/ (GOAT).

For poultry I have [o] (giving it a lexical set name is hard because it precedes /l/). I wouldn’t say that paltry is part of my active vocabulary but I think I’d say it with [æ].

Do you distinguish "hall, hull, hole/pole, pull, pool"?

chelsea wrote: ↑Sun Jul 05, 2026 3:45 pm [ä] for paltry.
[ʊ] for poultry.

Both are followed by [ɫ]. Odd, given that I have pole [pʰɔɫ] and poultry = pole + tree

What is [ä]? The TRAP vowel?

centralized [a], so halfway between [a] and [ɑ]. My TRAP vowel is [æ].

chelsea wrote: ↑Sun Jul 05, 2026 4:05 pm centralized [a], so halfway between [a] and [ɑ]. My TRAP vowel is [æ].

Does this vowel appear only before /l/? What set would you say it belongs to?

[ä] appears everywhere for me, partly because I have the caught-cot merger. Dawn, don, doll, bot, bought, tom, mob, sought, sod, job, body....

I'd put it in the LOT set.

I considered PALM, but looking at the wikipedia examples, my PALM words are all over the place: father, psalm, bra all have different vowels. [ä ɑ a] respectively.

jcb wrote: ↑Sun Jul 05, 2026 3:03 pm What vowels do people have in the words "paltry" and "poultry"? I have /V/ (STRUT) in both, but just realized that the latter is probably a hypercorrection and should be /o/ (GOAT).

I have /pɔ:ltrɪ/ and /pəʊltrɪ/, with neutralisation of /ɪ/ and /i/ in the final syllables. I wouldn't understand jcb's /pʌltrɪ/.

Richard W wrote: ↑Sun Jul 05, 2026 4:47 pm

jcb wrote: ↑Sun Jul 05, 2026 3:03 pm What vowels do people have in the words "paltry" and "poultry"? I have /V/ (STRUT) in both, but just realized that the latter is probably a hypercorrection and should be /o/ (GOAT).

I have /pɔ:ltrɪ/ and /pəʊltrɪ/, with neutralisation of /ɪ/ and /i/ in the final syllables. I wouldn't understand jcb's /pʌltrɪ/.

You wouldn't understand /V/ for either?, or just "poultry"?

BTW, in "paltry" I have /V/ instead of /A/, because
- (1) I merge COT and CAUGHT into /A/,and then
- (2) I have a sound change that raises my two lowest vowels /{/ and /A/ to /E/ and /V/ respectively when they're followed by a liquid+consonant. (Which I already talked about in an earlier thread: https://www.verduria.org/viewtopic.php?t=1584 )

So:
/{/ TRAP
- pal, fallow, gal
- Al, Albert (This is an exception, maybe because it's a name? or maybe because it's trying to stay consistent with the shortened form "Al", which always has /{/ ?)

/E/ DRESS
- altitude, falcon, calculator
- ell, fell, Celt

/e/ FACE (/E/ can't come before /r/, so it gets raised further to /e/.)
- marry, merry, Mary

/A/ LOT/THOUGHT/FATHER (I don't like calling this PALM, because "palm" is not included!)
- all, fall, call, hall, are, far, car

/V/ STRUT
- alternate, fault, halt, palm, art, fart, cart
- ultimate, cull, cult, hull

/o/ GOAT
- old, coal, colt, hole, holt

Edit: Added lexical classes.

jcb wrote: ↑Sun Jul 05, 2026 4:49 pm

I have /pɔ:ltrɪ/ and /pəʊltrɪ/, with neutralisation of /ɪ/ and /i/ in the final syllables. I wouldn't understand jcb's /pʌltrɪ/.

You wouldn't understand /V/ for either?, or just "poultry"?

I slightly mistyped. I should have typed /pɐltrɪ‌‌‌/. I am assuming I would hear [ʌɫ] as /ɐl/. And I then wouldn't recognise the word, whichever it was meant to be. I don't confound mull and mole.

I have paltry /ˈpɔltʃri/ [ˈpʰɒo̯tʃɹ̠ʁi(ː)] and poultry /ˈpoʊltʃri/ [ˈpʰo̞ʊ̯tʃɹ̠ʁi(ː)]. /ʌ/, whether as [ʌ] or as [ɐ], in either of these words would feel odd to me but I'd probably understand them with it in context.