Zompist Bboard Again

I played the original Sonic games on the Mega Drive, back in the day: I replayed them recently, and I think they hold up pretty well. I've never been a fan of the 3D Sonic games, though.

I know three at least partly significant people in my life who have a birthday today.

alice wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 3:33 am I know three at least partly significant people in my life who have a birthday today.

I'm trying to think of some interesting comment on this, but can't. OK, belated Happy Birthday to all three of them!

Unrelated: what's the longest documented time a human-made object has been in continuous human possession without ever being "lost" and then later being "rediscovered" by archaeologists? I'm thinking of something like a piece of Roman jewellery that was kept as a family heirloom or something like that since Roman times.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:45 am

alice wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 3:33 am I know three at least partly significant people in my life who have a birthday today.

I'm trying to think of some interesting comment on this, but can't. OK, belated Happy Birthday to all three of them!

Heh. I don't actually have any contact with any of them, unfortunately.
As it happens, there are six altogether with birthdays between the 10th and the 20th, plus our King on the 14th. I think it's something to do with it being nine months after St. Valentine's Day.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:51 am Unrelated: what's the longest documented time a human-made object has been in continuous human possession without ever being "lost" and then later being "rediscovered" by archaeologists? I'm thinking of something like a piece of Roman jewellery that was kept as a family heirloom or something like that since Roman times.

I've seen a few episodes of Time Team where most of a site is dated to a given century (ie Roman house, Britain, 2nd Century)...and one of the artifacts is a coin from the preceeding century - i think once it was roughly 150 years old - and worn very smooth from handling.

Other than instances like that, I think that the jewelry in the Smithsonian Museum in DC probably qualifies, having been passed from one owner to another over the course of around a century or two...though I suspect some of the clothing in Canterbury Cathedral probably could do nicely - I think they still have a Bishops Cloak from the reign of Henry 8th.

People have shown me gold coins that have been in their family from the Mughal Empire. I don't know much else about this topic.

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Can someone recommend a book about the New Deal from a left-wing perspective?

PS. Perhaps there are pieces in the Chinese Palace Museum collection that have been in continuous ownership for centuries. (Edit: OTOH, I'd be very surprised if any of them are older than the Renaissance art pieces.)

PPS. Having thought about it, your best bet might be some of the oldest relics of religious organizations like the Catholic Church.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:51 am Unrelated: what's the longest documented time a human-made object has been in continuous human possession without ever being "lost" and then later being "rediscovered" by archaeologists? I'm thinking of something like a piece of Roman jewellery that was kept as a family heirloom or something like that since Roman times.

I don't think this can be answered formally, without a stricter definition of "continuous human possession." Does it have to be out being used? Do the possessors have to know they own it? What if it was stolen? What if it's been in various collections for 600 years but not every step is documented?

That said, I think a pretty good bet is the British Crown Jewels. Even that history is pretty tumultous: most of the stuff dates no further than 1661, after the English Revolution. There's a spoon that dates back to the 12th century— it was held by someone else during the revolution, but we know who, if that counts.

Surely the Japanese Imperial Household has something pretty old. The Imperial Regalia, for instance. Supposedly the Empire has had than since at least 690, but only a few people ever see them, but the account of what happened to the items in the Genpei War (1185) sounds pretty fishy to me.

(There are a lot of royal or noble families in Europe, and surely some of them have some very old stuff. But there's also been a whole lot of upheaval, and periods like wars where objects of value go missing.)

Does the Bayeux Tapestry count? According to Wikipedia, it was created soon after the Norman Conquest and created to fit Bayeux Cathedral, though the first historical reference to it is 1476. The history is again pretty tumultous— and if something this well known is subject to so many owners and changes of location, so is just about anything.

Some religious relics are claimed to be ancient, but not very credibly.

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:49 pm Some religious relics are claimed to be ancient, but not very credibly.

The Chains of St. Paul? https://www.10best.com/interests/explor ... the-world/

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:17 pm People have shown me gold coins that have been in their family from the Mughal Empire.

That's pretty neat, but I can't help pointing out a) that could mean anything from 1526 to 1856, and b) older relatives love to bullshit young people. (Not necessarily the particular ones who have the coins now!)

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 10:00 pm That's pretty neat, but I can't help pointing out a) that could mean anything from 1526 to 1856, and b) older relatives love to bullshit young people. (Not necessarily the particular ones who have the coins now!)

People with knowledge of Farsi thought they're from the reign of Jahangir.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:57 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:49 pm Some religious relics are claimed to be ancient, but not very credibly.

The Chains of St. Paul? https://www.10best.com/interests/explor ... the-world/

Omigod, I wouldn't trust a single item on that page. (To be what it's claimed to be, I mean. It's possible that some of them have been around as long as various royal jewels, though!)

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:49 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:51 am Unrelated: what's the longest documented time a human-made object has been in continuous human possession without ever being "lost" and then later being "rediscovered" by archaeologists? I'm thinking of something like a piece of Roman jewellery that was kept as a family heirloom or something like that since Roman times.

I don't think this can be answered formally, without a stricter definition of "continuous human possession." Does it have to be out being used? Do the possessors have to know they own it?

?
You mean like, its been in the attic so long they forgot it was up there, til a curious canon or archaeologist stumbles across it?
(i think thats happened too)

What if it was stolen? What if it's been in various collections for 600 years but not every step is documented?

I think the Hope Diamond (i couldn't think of the name before) qualifies for this one, right? Its been out of the public eye - like The Judas Gospel, also kept in private hands/storage for a few decades - before resuming its being handed from one owner to another.

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 10:05 pm Hope Diamond

Isn't the Koh-i-Noor older?

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 10:05 pm Omigod, I wouldn't trust a single item on that page. (To be what it's claimed to be, I mean. It's possible that some of them have been around as long as various royal jewels, though!)

Obviously, the relics don't have to be what they claim to be. The just have to be in human possession for a long time.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 10:11 pm

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 10:05 pm Hope Diamond

Isn't the Koh-i-Noor older?

Yes, though wow, every Wikipedia article I've been looking at in the last half hour is an epic of travel, roguery, and theft. And these are well documented items! And some of the claims have to be taken skeptically— e.g. Babur says he had a diamond of 186 carats, which happens to be the size of the Koh-i-Noor before Albert whacked at it, and if Aurangzeb didn't.

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 10:05 pm You mean like, its been in the attic so long they forgot it was up there, til a curious canon or archaeologist stumbles across it?
(i think thats happened too)
[...]
I think the Hope Diamond (i couldn't think of the name before) qualifies for this one, right? Its been out of the public eye - like The Judas Gospel, also kept in private hands/storage for a few decades - before resuming its being handed from one owner to another.

A good example of both possibilities is the Voynich manuscript. We have no information on its whereabouts for its first 200 years, and again for that long after the 1770s. It was never dug up by an archeologist, so it's probably been in collections all that time, we just can't document the steps. In the second period it was probably just stored, forgotten, in the Collegio Romano bookshelves. Does that count as being possessed or not?

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 10:34 pm Yes, though wow, every Wikipedia article I've been looking at in the last half hour is an epic of travel, roguery, and theft. And these are well documented items! And some of the claims have to be taken skeptically— e.g. Babur says he had a diamond of 186 carats, which happens to be the size of the Koh-i-Noor before Albert whacked at it, and if Aurangzeb didn't.

BTW, there's a very amusing story about fake relics in Perec's Life: https://pastebin.com/raw/Jebs5Z8M

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 10:43 pm A good example of both possibilities is the Voynich manuscript. We have no information on its whereabouts for its first 200 years, and again for that long after the 1770s. It was never dug up by an archeologist, so it's probably been in collections all that time, we just can't document the steps. In the second period it was probably just stored, forgotten, in the Collegio Romano bookshelves. Does that count as being possessed or not?

The earliest non-religious hoax of sufficient quality to hold our attention? https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... ode=ucry20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67YzIOZTZXk

PS. BTW, I'd really appreciate a leftist book recommendation on the New Deal.

I get the feeling we should have been looking at books to begin with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Par ... us#History