Zompist Bboard Again

anteallach wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2026 4:56 am The variation in milk seems to go back to Middle English, and the OE forms had eo.

Just to nitpick, the Anglian form was milc. So yes, the variation is a long-established feature.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2026 5:15 am

anteallach wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2026 5:05 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2026 3:01 pm

Ah! Of course, you’re TRAP–BATH unsplit. That makes sense now.

So am I, but I'm still not sure what /fæ:m/ is meant to mean.

Well, the vowel that I usually see transcribed as /æ/ is in Scottish English usually pronounced as something more like [ɐ]. (Unlike other unsplit varieties where it really is [æ].) So it makes sense that Australian [ɐː] might be heard by a Scot as their TRAP–BATH vowel and thus be transcribed as /æː/.

So, "it sounds like a long version of my TRAP vowel"? In which case this is true for me too (at least for some types of AusE) but it would never have occurred to me to write it like that. Some New Zealand realisations of BATH words don't even sound that long to me and so sound remarkably like my own realisations.

(Most TRAP-BATH unsplit varieties in the UK have [a] rather than [æ]. I wouldn't transcribe mine as [ɐ] but that's mainly because I don't think it's actually the intended use of that symbol to use it for fully open vowels.)

The idea that a language variety such as AusE doesn't have fully-open vowels always confuses me...

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2026 9:51 am The idea that a language variety such as AusE doesn't have fully-open vowels always confuses me...

Eh? We do have open vowels — STRUT being one such.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2026 9:57 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2026 9:51 am The idea that a language variety such as AusE doesn't have fully-open vowels always confuses me...

Eh? We do have open vowels — STRUT being one such.

I think the reference is to the use of the [ɐ] symbol to transcribe it, which is a bit confusing to those of us who think of this symbol as representing a rather less than fully open vowel.

(I'm aware that it's a somewhat widely used transcription for AusE.)

anteallach wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2026 10:20 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2026 9:57 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2026 9:51 am The idea that a language variety such as AusE doesn't have fully-open vowels always confuses me...

Eh? We do have open vowels — STRUT being one such.

I think the reference is to the use of the [ɐ] symbol to transcribe it, which is a bit confusing to those of us who think of this symbol as representing a rather less than fully open vowel.

(I'm aware that it's a somewhat widely used transcription for AusE.)

Exactly ─ if STRUT and FATHER/PALM/START were open and not near-open, why are they conventionally transcribed in AusE as [ɐ ɐː] rather than as [a aː] (or if you want to be explicit about centralness, [ä äː])?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2026 12:55 pm

anteallach wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2026 10:20 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2026 9:57 am

Eh? We do have open vowels — STRUT being one such.

I think the reference is to the use of the [ɐ] symbol to transcribe it, which is a bit confusing to those of us who think of this symbol as representing a rather less than fully open vowel.

(I'm aware that it's a somewhat widely used transcription for AusE.)

Exactly ─ if STRUT and FATHER/PALM/START were open and not near-open, why are they conventionally transcribed in AusE as [ɐ ɐː] rather than as [a aː] (or if you want to be explicit about centralness, [ä äː])?

I did write [äː] earlier (well, actually, I see I accidentally wrote [ɐ̈ː], but that makes no sense as written and the intention is obvious).

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2026 1:30 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2026 12:55 pm

anteallach wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2026 10:20 am

I think the reference is to the use of the [ɐ] symbol to transcribe it, which is a bit confusing to those of us who think of this symbol as representing a rather less than fully open vowel.

(I'm aware that it's a somewhat widely used transcription for AusE.)

Exactly ─ if STRUT and FATHER/PALM/START were open and not near-open, why are they conventionally transcribed in AusE as [ɐ ɐː] rather than as [a aː] (or if you want to be explicit about centralness, [ä äː])?

I did write [äː] earlier (well, actually, I see I accidentally wrote [ɐ̈ː], but that makes no sense as written and the intention is obvious).

I have seen them transcribed in other places as [ɐ ɐː], though, which is insane.

Here's another interesting one: poet, and its derivatives including poem. It's common in Scottish English to insert an epenthetic /j/ between the vowels; afaik this is unique to this lexeme. Do any other varieties have this or similar?

alice wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2026 2:38 pm Here's another interesting one: poet, and its derivatives including poem. It's common in Scottish English to insert an epenthetic /j/ between the vowels; afaik this is unique to this lexeme. Do any other varieties have this or similar?

I rather have an epenthetic /w/: [pʰɔ̟͡ʉ̟wəˀtˢ], [pʰɔ̟͡ʉ̟wəm].

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2026 3:00 pm

alice wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2026 2:38 pm Here's another interesting one: poet, and its derivatives including poem. It's common in Scottish English to insert an epenthetic /j/ between the vowels; afaik this is unique to this lexeme. Do any other varieties have this or similar?

I rather have an epenthetic /w/: [pʰɔ̟͡ʉ̟wəˀtˢ], [pʰɔ̟͡ʉ̟wəm].

As do I: [pʰo̞ːwɘʔ(t)] and [pʰo̞ːwə(ː)m].

I should note that historical /oʊ/ [o̞(ː)] is normally separated by a following vowel with /w/ [w] IMD, and the only cases where that does not happen are where another consonant is elided between /oʊ/ and a following vowel, such as when over /oʊvər/ is realized as [ˈo̞ːʁ̩ˤ(ː)].

This even applies where historical /oʊ/ is sychronically reduced to a schwa or elided, as in cooperate /koʊˈwɑpəˌreɪt/ [kʰo̞ːˈwapʁ̩ˤːˌʁˤe̞ʔ(t)]~[kʰəːˈwapʁ̩ˤːˌʁˤe̞ʔ(t)]~[ˈkʰwapʁ̩ˤːˌʁˤe̞ʔ(t)].

What vowels do people have in "ensemble, envelope, scenario"?

For me:
- "ensemble" : /A/ (LOT)
- "envelope" : /E/ (DRESS) (But my grandmother has /A/ (LOT).)
- "scenario" : /e/ (SQUARE)

Despite them all French borrowings, "envelope" and "scenario"'s pronunciations have changed to match their spellings.

jcb wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2026 4:46 pm What vowels do people have in "ensemble, envelope, scenario"?

For me:
- "ensemble" : /A/ (LOT)
- "envelope" : /E/ (DRESS) (But my grandmother has /A/ (LOT).)
- "scenario" : /e/ (SQUARE)

Despite them all French borrowings, "envelope" and "scenario"'s pronunciations have changed to match their spellings.

ensemble /ɑnˈsɑmbəl/ [ãnˈt̟s̟ãːmbɯ(ː)]
envelope /ˌɑnvəˈloʊp/ [ˌãːvəːˈʟ̞o̞ʔp] but I often hear /ˌɛnvəˈloʊp/ [ˌɜ̃ːvəːˈʟ̞o̞ʔp]
scenario /səˈnɛrioʊ/ [s̟ɘ̃ːˈnɛ̝ːʁˤjo̞(ː)(w)] but I sometimes hear /səˈnɑrioʊ/ [s̟ɘ̃ːˈnɑːʁˤjo̞(ː)(w)]

On that note, how do you guys pronounce en masse and en route? I have /ˌɑmˈmæs/ [ˌãːmˈmɛs̟] and /ˌɑnˈrut/ [ˌãːnˈʁʷˤuʔ(t)]* myself.

* I never say */ˌɑnˈraʊt/ [ˌãːnˈʁʷˤʌ̆ŏ̯ʔ(t)] myself even though I normally vary between /raʊt/ ]ʁʷˤʌ̆ŏ̯ʔ(t)] and /rut/ [ʁʷˤuʔ(t)] for route**.
** except for some examples such as Route 66 where I always use /rut/ [ʁʷˤuʔ(t)] or router where I always have /ˈraʊtər/ [ˈʁʷˤʌ̆ŏ̯ɾʁ̩ˤ(ː)].

jcb wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2026 4:46 pm What vowels do people have in "ensemble, envelope, scenario"?

For me:
- "ensemble" : /A/ (LOT)
- "envelope" : /E/ (DRESS) (But my grandmother has /A/ (LOT).)
- "scenario" : /e/ (SQUARE)

Despite them all French borrowings, "envelope" and "scenario"'s pronunciations have changed to match their spellings.

For me, ensemble is not fully assimilated, and is therefore /ɒ̃sɒ̃mbl‌‌/ , which would therefore approximate to LOT.
envelope mostly has /ɒ‌/ (LOT), but in the mathematical sense usually has /ɛ‌/ (DRESS).
scenario is /sɪˈnɑːrɪəʊ‌/, so happY and then START.

Are you sure that scenario is borrowed from French scénario rather than directly from Italian scenarioʔ

Richard W wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2026 11:50 pm

jcb wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2026 4:46 pm What vowels do people have in "ensemble, envelope, scenario"?

For me:
- "ensemble" : /A/ (LOT)
- "envelope" : /E/ (DRESS) (But my grandmother has /A/ (LOT).)
- "scenario" : /e/ (SQUARE)

Despite them all French borrowings, "envelope" and "scenario"'s pronunciations have changed to match their spellings.

For me, ensemble is not fully assimilated, and is therefore /ɒ̃sɒ̃mbl‌‌/ , which would therefore approximate to LOT.
envelope mostly has /ɒ‌/ (LOT), but in the mathematical sense usually has /ɛ‌/ (DRESS).
scenario is /sɪˈnɑːrɪəʊ‌/, so happY and then START.

Are you sure that scenario is borrowed from French scénario rather than directly from Italian scenarioʔ

I always find it funny when EngE has nasal vowel phonemes in the way that StG has nasal vowel phonemes. While my native English could be argued to have nasal vowel phonemes (to explain cases where it synchronically has oral vowels followed by nasal consonants, deriving from reduction of historical stop-nasal clusters, and also because there are many cases in which historical nasal consonants have been lost but have left behind nasal vowels), these are not the same because they always trace back to historical or synchronic nasal consonants, and foreign nasal vowels has been consistently converted into sequences of nasal vowels and nasal consonants, even if these nasal consonants are lost in turn.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2026 11:15 pm On that note, how do you guys pronounce en masse and en route? I have /ˌɑmˈmæs/ [ˌãːmˈmɛs̟] and /ˌɑnˈrut/ [ˌãːnˈʁʷˤuʔ(t)]* myself.

* I never say */ˌɑnˈraʊt/ [ˌãːnˈʁʷˤʌ̆ŏ̯ʔ(t)] myself even though I normally vary between /raʊt/ ]ʁʷˤʌ̆ŏ̯ʔ(t)] and /rut/ [ʁʷˤuʔ(t)] for route**.
** except for some examples such as Route 66 where I always use /rut/ [ʁʷˤuʔ(t)] or router where I always have /ˈraʊtər/ [ˈʁʷˤʌ̆ŏ̯ɾʁ̩ˤ(ː)].

/ɒ̃ˈmas/ and /ɒ̃ˈruːt/

My treatment of the other three words is essentially the same as Richard W's.

anteallach wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2026 4:57 am /ɒ̃ˈmas/ and /ɒ̃ˈruːt/

Can be thus for me, but I think I resolve /ɒ̃/ in them to /ɒn/ more frequently than not.

jcb wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2026 4:46 pm What vowels do people have in "ensemble, envelope, scenario"?

For me:
- "ensemble" : /A/ (LOT)
- "envelope" : /E/ (DRESS) (But my grandmother has /A/ (LOT).)
- "scenario" : /e/ (SQUARE)

Despite them all French borrowings, "envelope" and "scenario"'s pronunciations have changed to match their spellings.

These are /ɛn'sɛmbl/, /'ɛnvɛlop/, and /si'nɑrio/ for me.