Zompist Bboard Again

Using Travis's words, I have:

1. NORTH/FORCE [oː] in poor, tour, Moore, gourmet, gourd, boor, your, you're, tourney¹, bourgeois (i.e. /ˈbɔːʒwɑː/, with PALM/START/FATHER at the end)
2. /j/+CURE [jɵː] in pure, cure, curious, fury, bureau, Ural, manure
3. CURE without /j/ [ɵː] in plural, jury, luxurious, rural
4. NURSE [ɜː] in Bourbon¹
5. Register dependent 1 varying with 2 in sure, mature, endure

In short, CURE holds up for me quite well, but is steadily merging into NORTH/FORCE

¹ These words aren't part of my active vocabulary, so take there assignments with a grain of salt.

Lērisama wrote: ↑Sun Sep 07, 2025 4:12 am Using Travis's words, I have:

1. NORTH/FORCE [oː] in poor, tour, Moore, gourmet, gourd, boor, your, you're, tourney¹, bourgeois (i.e. /ˈbɔːʒwɑː/, with PALM/START/FATHER at the end)
2. /j/+CURE [jɵː] in pure, cure, curious, fury, bureau, Ural, manure
3. CURE without /j/ [ɵː] in plural, jury, luxurious, rural
4. NURSE [ɜː] in Bourbon¹
5. Register dependent 1 varying with 2 in sure, mature, endure

In short, CURE holds up for me quite well, but is steadily merging into NORTH/FORCE

¹ These words aren't part of my active vocabulary, so take there assignments with a grain of salt.

My pattern is very similar. I have FORCE in all your group 1 words, and also in Bourbon, at least as long as it's a biscuit or a royal family. In the others, including your group 5, I have what I would transcribe as [ʊː].

(I have TRAP in the second syllable of bourgeois, though.)

/or/: Boer, boor, bourgeois, gourd, gourmet, poor, tour, tourist
/jɝ/: bureau, cure, curious, fury, pure, Ural, your, you're
/ɝ/: bourbon, during, jury, neural, plural, rural, tournament (who says "tourney"? renfaires? SCA? I haven't been to a joust in ages)
/ɝ/ + yod coalescence: luxurious, mature, sure

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Sun Sep 07, 2025 1:06 pmwho says "tourney"? renfaires? SCA? I haven't been to a joust in ages

People who follow sports (a quiz bowl tourney, a volleyball tourney). My phone accepts it as a valid word.

I mostly know 'tourney' from Smash Bros. I'm surprized anyone doesn't know 'Bourbon', tho.

Starbeam wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 9:18 am I mostly know 'tourney' from Smash Bros. I'm surprized anyone doesn't know 'Bourbon', tho.

I know it, but just from reading, so I can't pronounce it.

Lērisama wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 9:45 am

Starbeam wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 9:18 am I mostly know 'tourney' from Smash Bros. I'm surprized anyone doesn't know 'Bourbon', tho.

I know it, but just from reading, so I can't pronounce it.

Bourbon? I guess that depends on whether you're referring to Bourbon whiskey or the House of Bourbon. In the former case, you'd have to use English pronunciation rules; in the latter, French ones.

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 3:37 pm

Lērisama wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 9:45 am

Starbeam wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 9:18 am I mostly know 'tourney' from Smash Bros. I'm surprized anyone doesn't know 'Bourbon', tho.

I know it, but just from reading, so I can't pronounce it.

Bourbon? I guess that depends on whether you're referring to Bourbon whiskey or the House of Bourbon. In the former case, you'd have to use English pronunciation rules; in the latter, French ones.

I am used to one pronunciation in English, the one with NURSE, myself. I have never heard it with NORTH/FORCE or CURE.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 4:20 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 3:37 pm Bourbon? I guess that depends on whether you're referring to Bourbon whiskey or the House of Bourbon. In the former case, you'd have to use English pronunciation rules; in the latter, French ones.

I am used to one pronunciation in English, the one with NURSE, myself. I have never heard it with NORTH/FORCE or CURE.

Which difference makes it one of those words which don't belong to any lexical set!

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 3:37 pm

Lērisama wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 9:45 am

Starbeam wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 9:18 am I mostly know 'tourney' from Smash Bros. I'm surprized anyone doesn't know 'Bourbon', tho.

I know it, but just from reading, so I can't pronounce it.

Bourbon? I guess that depends on whether you're referring to Bourbon whiskey or the House of Bourbon. In the former case, you'd have to use English pronunciation rules; in the latter, French ones.

It hadn't occurred to me that "Bourbon" would ever not be pronounced like the whiskey.

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 7:32 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 3:37 pm

Lērisama wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 9:45 am

I know it, but just from reading, so I can't pronounce it.

Bourbon? I guess that depends on whether you're referring to Bourbon whiskey or the House of Bourbon. In the former case, you'd have to use English pronunciation rules; in the latter, French ones.

It hadn't occurred to me that "Bourbon" would ever not be pronounced like the whiskey.

I guess the biscuit (which was certainly my first encounter with the word, and which I learnt to pronounce with FORCE) isn't particularly known in the US?

anteallach wrote: ↑Wed Sep 10, 2025 10:27 am

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 7:32 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 3:37 pm

Bourbon? I guess that depends on whether you're referring to Bourbon whiskey or the House of Bourbon. In the former case, you'd have to use English pronunciation rules; in the latter, French ones.

It hadn't occurred to me that "Bourbon" would ever not be pronounced like the whiskey.

I guess the biscuit (which was certainly my first encounter with the word, and which I learnt to pronounce with FORCE) isn't particularly known in the US?

I hadn't heard of that kind of cookie (to me 'biscuit' implies something savory) before your post here. To me Bourbon is always pronounced with NURSE in English.

anteallach wrote: ↑Wed Sep 10, 2025 10:27 am

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 7:32 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 3:37 pm

Bourbon? I guess that depends on whether you're referring to Bourbon whiskey or the House of Bourbon. In the former case, you'd have to use English pronunciation rules; in the latter, French ones.

It hadn't occurred to me that "Bourbon" would ever not be pronounced like the whiskey.

I guess the biscuit (which was certainly my first encounter with the word, and which I learnt to pronounce with FORCE) isn't particularly known in the US?

They have them at the Indian markets. It wouldn't have occurred to me to pronounce them with FORCE.

Nortaneous wrote:(who says "tourney"? renfaires? SCA? I haven't been to a joust in ages)

I've been to baseball tourneys, volleyball tourneys, and smash bros tourneys. I admit that "tournament" is a more common word, but "tourney" is still used plenty too.

anteallach wrote:I guess the biscuit (which was certainly my first encounter with the word, and which I learnt to pronounce with FORCE) isn't particularly known in the US?

I've never heard of this food.

The only thing that comes to mind when I hear /borb/ is the "borb" meme, which refers to a cute, round (orb-like) bird.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Sep 06, 2025 11:08 pm I honestly don't like "CURE" for this reason. For instance, I have:

/ur/ in poor, tour, Moore, lure
/jur/~/jər/ in pure, cure
/jər/ in curious, fury, bureau, Ural, euro, Europe
/ur/~/ɔr/ in Boer, gourmet
/ɔr/ in gourd, boor
/ɔr/~/ər/ in your, you're
/ur/~/ər/ in sure, mature, endure, manure
/ər/ in plural, jury, luxurious, rural, tourney, Bourbon
/ʊ/ in bourgeois (i.e. /bʊʒˈwɑ/)

I have to revise these vowels. I realized that I have a rounded version of NURSE, which I will call /ɵr/ [ʁ̩ʷˤ(ː)(ʁˤ)], in many CURE words. I found this because when trying to pronounce these words with plain NURSE they just did not come out quite right, and then I realized that when I pronounced them my "NURSE" was rounded. So here are my revised pronunciations:

/ur/ in poor, tour, Moore, lure
/jur/~/jɵr/ in pure, cure
/jɵr/ in curious, fury, bureau, Ural, euro, Europe
/ur/~/ɔr/ in Boer, gourmet
/ɔr/ in gourd, boor
/ɔr/~/ər/ in your, you're
/ur/~/ɵr/ in sure, mature, endure, manure
/ɵr/ in luxurious
/ər/ in plural, jury, rural, tourney, Bourbon
/ʊ/ in bourgeois (i.e. /bʊʒˈwɑ/)

I have /oː/ in all of those words except for some reason Europe, which is short /jʊ/ (I think this is GenAus but I'll let other the aussies weigh in).

I believe I have:

[ʊɜ̆~ɵɜ̆] in poor, tour, Moore (and arguably Boer but Afrikaans influence makes that one atypical)
[ʊɜ̆~ɵː] in lure, sure
[jʊɜ̆~jɵɜ̆~jɵ̟ː] in pure, cure, you’re, endure, manure
[(j)ʊɜ̆~jɵ̟ː] in mature (this one seems to vary with word class! the verb gets a yod)
[ʊˑɻʷ~ɵˑɻʷ] in rural, plural, jury, luxurious (words listed from most backed to most fronted, but no clear dividing lines between the two realisations)
[jʊˑɻʷ~jɵˑɻʷ] in curious, fury, euro
[jʊɻʷ~jɵɻʷ] in Europe
[o̞ː] in gourmet, gourd, your
[uʁ] in bourgeois

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Sep 16, 2025 5:19 am I believe I have:

[ʊɜ̆~ɵɜ̆] in poor, tour, Moore (and arguably Boer but Afrikaans influence makes that one atypical)
[ʊɜ̆~ɵː] in lure, sure
[jʊɜ̆~jɵɜ̆~jɵ̟ː] in pure, cure, you’re, endure, manure
[(j)ʊɜ̆~jɵ̟ː] in mature (this one seems to vary with word class! the verb gets a yod)
[ʊˑɻʷ~ɵˑɻʷ] in rural, plural, jury, luxurious (words listed from most backed to most fronted, but no clear dividing lines between the two realisations)
[jʊˑɻʷ~jɵˑɻʷ] in curious, fury, euro
[jʊɻʷ~jɵɻʷ] in Europe
[o̞ː] in gourmet, gourd, your
[uʁ] in bourgeois

Now I wonder how you'd analyze all these!

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Sep 16, 2025 8:55 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Sep 16, 2025 5:19 am I believe I have:

[ʊɜ̆~ɵɜ̆] in poor, tour, Moore (and arguably Boer but Afrikaans influence makes that one atypical)
[ʊɜ̆~ɵː] in lure, sure
[jʊɜ̆~jɵɜ̆~jɵ̟ː] in pure, cure, you’re, endure, manure
[(j)ʊɜ̆~jɵ̟ː] in mature (this one seems to vary with word class! the verb gets a yod)
[ʊˑɻʷ~ɵˑɻʷ] in rural, plural, jury, luxurious (words listed from most backed to most fronted, but no clear dividing lines between the two realisations)
[jʊˑɻʷ~jɵˑɻʷ] in curious, fury, euro
[jʊɻʷ~jɵɻʷ] in Europe
[o̞ː] in gourmet, gourd, your
[uʁ] in bourgeois

Now I wonder how you'd analyze all these!

I don’t.

Darren wrote: ↑Tue Sep 16, 2025 4:39 am I have /oː/ in all of those words except for some reason Europe, which is short /jʊ/ (I think this is GenAus but I'll let other the aussies weigh in).

So you pronounce euro with /joː/?