Zompist Bboard Again

Posted: **Mon Nov 25, 2024 1:03 pm**

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2024 2:08 am Oh god, yes, I’d forgotten about ‘Lettuce Liz’ Truss and Rishi Sunak. Thanks for the reminder, I guess.

Forgetting is probably the best way to deal with them. It doesn't change much (until you look at anything where interest rates matter, and get newly angry)

(Australia had gotten its own coup-prone-ness under control by then. Morrison was replaced by Albanese in 2022, and since then a whole two years have gone by without any new government at all.)

I think you might have sent it here – in the time since Morrison became PM, we've hand 5 Tory leaders. And 5 PMs, but they don't fully overlap (Starmer≠Badenoch), and the Tories always seem much more coup-y than Labour.

Posted: **Mon Nov 25, 2024 6:20 pm**

Lērisama wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2024 1:03 pm
(Australia had gotten its own coup-prone-ness under control by then. Morrison was replaced by Albanese in 2022, and since then a whole two years have gone by without any new government at all.)
I think you might have sent it here – in the time since Morrison became PM, we've hand 5 Tory leaders. And 5 PMs, but they don't fully overlap (Starmer≠Badenoch), and the Tories always seem much more coup-y than Labour.

Yes, so I’ve heard. Apparently Britain always gets its political trends from Australia. (Or so the Australian media claims…)

Posted: **Tue Nov 26, 2024 1:33 am**

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2024 6:20 pm Apparently Britain always gets its political trends from Australia. (Or so the Australian media claims…)

I think we take a survey of Europe + the Anglosphere and pick the most tedious trends available.

Posted: **Tue Nov 26, 2024 1:34 am**

Edit: Accidentally quoted post above

Posted: **Wed Nov 27, 2024 2:42 pm**

2024 replies now.

Posted: **Fri Apr 04, 2025 12:28 pm**

In politically probably not that important news, there are now more reports about connections between disgraced Prince Andrew and suspected Chinese spies, or one suspected Chinese spy. Which makes me wonder: given what other things Prince Andrew is known for, is the discovery of a connection between him and the Chinese government more embarrassing for him or for the Chinese government?

Posted: **Sun May 04, 2025 9:56 pm**

In case anybody thought that the far-right was abating, the Reform party won big in the latest UK local elections, and the Labour party was lucky to greatly benefit from the FPTP voting system:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_Unit ... _elections

I think Richard Murphy has summed up the problem well:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inB0CyQR3bs
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mEZofx3Na4

In summary, neoliberalism has worsened the lives of many/most ordinary people. They have rebelled by voting for non-neoliberal parties. Neoliberals box out the left to keep the left from winning, but this only continues the neoliberalism that continues to worsen ordinary people's lives, which just makes even more of them upset and amenable to the far-right message. Simply telling people "But they're fascists, so don't vote for them!" won't work. They're desperate for change, and think that fascist change is better than no change at all.

There's a kernel of truth to what far-right influencers like Andrew Tate say. Tate is right when he says that if you work a minimum wage job, your life is going to suck, and his followers also know it, and are terrified that it's going to happen to them (if it hasn't happened already). Leftists must acknowledge this very real fear and pain as legitimate, and enact programs that actually improve ordinary people's lives. Anything else is inadequate and will just allow the descent into fascism to continue.

Posted: **Mon May 05, 2025 3:46 am**

jcb wrote: ↑Sun May 04, 2025 9:56 pm In case anybody thought that the far-right was abating, the Reform party won big in the latest UK local elections, and the Labour party was lucky to greatly benefit from the FPTP voting system:

Erm, I haven't checked everywhere, but at least where I live, Reform was greatly helped by FPTP, and Labour was wiped out¹. I think I remember the BBC analysis saying how FPTP was now helping Reform instead of hindering them as well. That doesn't make it any less scary, but it might just spur the government to reform³ FPTP to something less insane. Even something simple like preferential or approval voting would help, since about ¼ of the population think Nigel Farage is their lord and saviour and ¾ utterly detest him⁴.

¹ There were a number of wards around here where Labour, Reform, and whichever one of the Greens and Lib Dems were campaigning there² were all in the 20-25% range, and of them, Greens/Lib Dems won just over half, and the rest went to reform, with none of its margins being over 200 votes.
² They seem to have an unofficial non-aggression pact
³ No pun intended
⁴ Okay, I may be slightly exaggerating here

Posted: **Mon May 05, 2025 3:59 am**

jcb wrote: ↑Sun May 04, 2025 9:56 pm In summary, neoliberalism has worsened the lives of many/most ordinary people. They have rebelled by voting for non-neoliberal parties. Neoliberals box out the left to keep the left from winning, but this only continues the neoliberalism that continues to worsen ordinary people's lives, which just makes even more of them upset and amenable to the far-right message. Simply telling people "But they're fascists, so don't vote for them!" won't work.

There's a kernel of truth to what far-right influencers like Andrew Tate say. Tate is right when he says that if you work a minimum wage job, your life is going to suck, and his followers also know it, and are terrified that it's going to happen to them (if it hasn't happened already). Leftists must acknowledge this very real fear and pain as legitimate, and enact programs that actually improve ordinary people's lives. Anything else is inadequate and will just allow the descent into fascism to continue.

The left does try to address such fears by trying to slightly raise the minimum wage. This is nowhere near enough. E.g. Amazon drivers have a precarious life rushing from delivery to delivery. They feel like their soul is being sucked out. Any self-improvement they ever tried is falling by the wayside. The people who take such jobs are not qualified for much else. Politicians suspect that strong regulations on these jobs will greatly reduce the number of such jobs available, make deliveries more expensive, and be challenged by delivery company money. The only way around this problem is radical change in the way business is done.

To repeat myself: If the leftists in power are going to shut down any proposal for radical change, desperate people are going to let the fascists try it.

Posted: **Mon May 05, 2025 4:10 am**

There are two issues: a) the left being boxed out b) the rise of fascism. Both issues interact, of course, but one is not the cause of the other.

When they bother to test it, opinion polls do show that far-right voters are usually happier and more satisfied with their lives than average.
This is going to be blunt, but I think it's the best way to put it: far-right voters are stupid and racist. There are no deeper sociological explanations.

Of course left-wing parties should enact programs that improve peoples' life... but it's not likely to help with the far-right problem.

Posted: **Mon May 05, 2025 4:32 am**

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 4:10 am This is going to be blunt, but I think it's the best way to put it: far-right voters are stupid and racist. There are no deeper sociological explanations.

Of course left-wing parties should enact programs that improve peoples' life... but it's not likely to help with the far-right problem.

I agree that the primary demographic for fascists are managers and small business owners. At the same time, lots of poor people do vote for the far right in the hopes of improving their lives. Many poor Americans who voted for Trump now have a worse image of him.

Modi has a 77% approval rating, the highest in the world. The poor must be supporting him because most Indians are poor. India has millions who are poorer than people in Subsaharan Africa. Modi crashed the economy at one point, which didn't faze his supporters. Indian education (I use the term broadly) is of such low quality that the poor still think he's fighting for them.

Honestly, I think Indian education may be improved if we just translated the nonfiction writings of Asimov into local languages and distributed them widely. I remember being inspired by his theories about science when I was in middle school. The quality of the writing produced by a professional writer may be more important than the depth of his reasoning.

Every country has national specifics like this. I remember seeing that America has an empathy problem. These days, kids who read Steinbeck in school think the working class protagonists are stupid and deserve the bad stuff that happens to them. When I see stuff like this, I sort of see why so many Americans think Christianity is a force for good in society. Of course, the people who are dead set against empathy will find whatever angle in Christianity enables their cruelty, as we see with MAGA's war against empathy. What needs to be addressed are the material conditions, whatever those are.

Posted: **Mon May 05, 2025 7:29 am**

I think my parents (for whom this is very much not their first rodeo) are advising caution about extrapolating from the results of these local elections to a general election. Local elections are frequently used to cast protest votes against the government regardless of colour, and there are definitely people who don't show up to vote in a local election—the turnout for Oxfordshire where I live was 35.6%—but do in a general election, e.g. the turnout in 2024 was 59.8%. (It may be concerning that the turnout for general elections has been dropping; I'm tempted to chalk this up as a symptom of neoliberalism and the "non-aggression pact" that Lērisama mentioned, since what's the point if all you're voting for is the colour of the rosette on the guy telling you to go fuck yourself?)

Posted: **Mon May 05, 2025 8:37 am**

rotting bones wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 4:32 am I agree that the primary demographic for fascists are managers and small business owners. At the same time, lots of poor people do vote for the far right in the hopes of improving their lives. Many poor Americans who voted for Trump now have a worse image of him.

Modi has a 77% approval rating, the highest in the world. The poor must be supporting him because most Indians are poor. India has millions who are poorer than people in Subsaharan Africa. Modi crashed the economy at one point, which didn't faze his supporters. Indian education (I use the term broadly) is of such low quality that the poor still think he's fighting for them.

Honestly, I think Indian education may be improved if we just translated the nonfiction writings of Asimov into local languages and distributed them widely. I remember being inspired by his theories about science when I was in middle school. The quality of the writing produced by a professional writer may be more important than the depth of his reasoning.

Every country has national specifics like this. I remember seeing that America has an empathy problem. These days, kids who read Steinbeck in school think the working class protagonists are stupid and deserve the bad stuff that happens to them. When I see stuff like this, I sort of see why so many Americans think Christianity is a force for good in society. Of course, the people who are dead set against empathy will find whatever angle in Christianity enables their cruelty, as we see with MAGA's war against empathy. What needs to be addressed are the material conditions, whatever those are.

I generally agree education is key.

I don't know about Americans and empathy. I can't say I see any difference in that respect with other cultures. Trump is more spectacular maybe, but politicians in other countries aren't much better.
If anything Americans may show some excessive optimism about capitalism and excessive competence they can outwit the bad guys. I suspect neither attitudes will last much longer.

Posted: **Mon May 05, 2025 12:19 pm**

rotting bones wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 4:32 am These days, kids who read Steinbeck in school think the working class protagonists are stupid and deserve the bad stuff that happens to them.

Linguistic sidetrack: Is read present or past tense? Both make sense. I wonder if I only paused at this sentence because they are pronounced differently.

Posted: **Mon May 05, 2025 12:21 pm**

The left does try to address such fears by trying to slightly raise the minimum wage. This is nowhere near enough. E.g. Amazon drivers have a precarious life rushing from delivery to delivery. They feel like their soul is being sucked out. Any self-improvement they ever tried is falling by the wayside. The people who take such jobs are not qualified for much else. Politicians suspect that strong regulations on these jobs will greatly reduce the number of such jobs available, make deliveries more expensive, and be challenged by delivery company money. The only way around this problem is radical change in the way business is done.

The Post Office also has people going from house to house with deliveries, and they're unionized to secure better pay and conditions. There's no reason why Amazon delivery drivers couldn't/shouldn't be unionized too.

rotting bones wrote:To repeat myself: If the leftists in power are going to shut down any proposal for radical change, desperate people are going to let the fascists try it.

Agreed.

Ares Land wrote:When they bother to test it, opinion polls do show that far-right voters are usually happier and more satisfied with their lives than average.
This is going to be blunt, but I think it's the best way to put it: far-right voters are stupid and racist. There are no deeper sociological explanations.

I don't disagree that the *core* of fascist parties are bigoted rich people like Trump and Farage, but they wouldn't get anywhere near power if they didn't convince a bunch of less bigoted desperate poor people to vote for them.

Of course left-wing parties should enact programs that improve peoples' life... but it's not likely to help with the far-right problem.

So, you're basically saying that there's no solution.

Every country has national specifics like this. I remember seeing that America has an empathy problem. These days, kids who read Steinbeck in school think the working class protagonists are stupid and deserve the bad stuff that happens to them.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/the-dis ... -liberals/

https://www.vice.com/en/article/the-disturbing-thing-i-learned-studying-white-privilege-and-liberals/ wrote:However, what we found startling was that white privilege lessons didn’t increase liberals’ sympathy for poor Black people. Instead, these lessons decreased liberals’ sympathy for poor white people, which led them to blame white people more for their own poverty. They seemed to think that if a person is poor despite all the privileges of being white, there must really be something wrong with them.

Thanks for the racism and classism, neoliberalism!

I generally agree education is key.

Spoken like a true neolib! I'm pessimistic about more education, because more education alone can't fix the fact that increasingly getting an education doesn't pay off, either because the job market is so saturated with graduates that having a degree devalues the job, making it pay no better than a job that doesn't require a degree, or that it no longer guarantees that you'll even get a job in your field, because you no longer stick out, or that the cost of getting a degree (in both time and money) is so high that it negates whatever increase in pay that the job provides.

I realize that this probably won't convince you, because neolibs see ~*~ Education ~*~ as not just a way to learn how to do X, but as a way to ~*~ Become a Better Person ~*~, but this is a classist notion that must be defeated.

If your theory of education is correct, then why is society on the precipice of fascism when more people are more educated then ever before?

Posted: **Mon May 05, 2025 1:00 pm**

Ketsuban wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 7:29 am I think my parents (for whom this is very much not their first rodeo) are advising caution about extrapolating from the results of these local elections to a general election. Local elections are frequently used to cast protest votes against the government regardless of colour, and there are definitely people who don't show up to vote in a local election—the turnout for Oxfordshire where I live was 35.6%—but do in a general election, e.g. the turnout in 2024 was 59.8%. (It may be concerning that the turnout for general elections has been dropping; I'm tempted to chalk this up as a symptom of neoliberalism and the "non-aggression pact" that Lērisama mentioned, since what's the point if all you're voting for is the colour of the rosette on the guy telling you to go fuck yourself?)

However, voter suppression probably acted against Reform UK. Sunak admitted at previous elections that voter suppression had actually backfired and disproportionately suppressed older voters. My standard ID documents were expired and therefore dependent on the electoral officer's approval, and the one that had previously passed muster was not in its normal place. However, I did have a bus pass, which is acceptable because old people are much more likely to have them, and to have them to hand, so I made the effort (as it now is, alas) to walk to the polling station. (So I may be a case where voter suppression worked as intended.) I'm not sure why I didn't have a polling card; I was actually a bit worried that the polling station might not be at the usual place. I was worried until I saw the school that hosts the polling station was closed.

I was struck by the results - our town's county councillors changed from 5:1 Labour:Liberal to 5:1 Reform UK:Liberal. The county has switched from Conservative to no control with the Liberals the largest party.

Posted: **Mon May 05, 2025 3:04 pm**

jcb wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 12:21 pm

I realize that this probably won't convince you, because neolibs see ~*~ Education ~*~ as not just a way to learn how to do X, but as a way to ~*~ Become a Better Person ~*~, but this is a classist notion that must be defeated.

Knowing Ares Land, I'm pretty sure he's not a neolib.

Posted: **Mon May 05, 2025 3:27 pm**

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 3:04 pm
jcb wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 12:21 pm

I realize that this probably won't convince you, because neolibs see ~*~ Education ~*~ as not just a way to learn how to do X, but as a way to ~*~ Become a Better Person ~*~, but this is a classist notion that must be defeated.

Knowing Ares Land, I'm pretty sure he's not a neolib.

If it walks like a duck, and swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck.

Posted: **Mon May 05, 2025 3:31 pm**

jcb wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 3:27 pm
Raphael wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 3:04 pm
jcb wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 12:21 pm

I realize that this probably won't convince you, because neolibs see ~*~ Education ~*~ as not just a way to learn how to do X, but as a way to ~*~ Become a Better Person ~*~, but this is a classist notion that must be defeated.

Knowing Ares Land, I'm pretty sure he's not a neolib.
If it walks like a duck, and swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck.

You're talking about one line. Read what he has posted about Macron if you don't believe me.

Posted: **Mon May 05, 2025 9:30 pm**

jcb wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 12:21 pmI realize that this probably won't convince you, because neolibs see ~*~ Education ~*~ as not just a way to learn how to do X, but as a way to ~*~ Become a Better Person ~*~, but this is a classist notion that must be defeated.

This isn't classist or neoliberal, it's reality. Of course, it also depends on the "education", but opposing this notion is anti-intellectualism, which fascism feeds upon.

If your theory of education is correct, then why is society on the precipice of fascism when more people are more educated then ever before?

Because anti-intellectualism is on the rise and the less educated resent and distrust the more educated. Anti-vax, flat earth, raw milk, these don't just come out of nowhere.

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