Zompist Bboard Again

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jul 31, 2025 4:26 pm

Lērisama wrote: ↑Thu Jul 31, 2025 4:21 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jul 31, 2025 3:53 pm

I thought a classic feature of modern British dialects is that they lower TRAP, while NAE dialects often raise or diphthongize TRAP.

I raise none of KIT, DRESS & TRAP; I think Darren may have meant “lowered”, contrasting eith with the raising of LOT

The matter with that, though, is that AusE, NZE, and apparently traditional RP raise DRESS relative to most other modern English varieties, whether British or American.

I don't know about Australian or New Zealand English, but I was assuming a lowering of DRESS, from the RP, rather than the Early Modern (southern British?) English¹, for the sentence to make sense.

¹ Do we even the phonetics of vowels then in that much detail?

Lērisama wrote: ↑Thu Jul 31, 2025 4:36 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jul 31, 2025 4:26 pm

Lērisama wrote: ↑Thu Jul 31, 2025 4:21 pm

I raise none of KIT, DRESS & TRAP; I think Darren may have meant “lowered”, contrasting eith with the raising of LOT

The matter with that, though, is that AusE, NZE, and apparently traditional RP raise DRESS relative to most other modern English varieties, whether British or American.

I don't know about Australian or New Zealand English, but I was assuming a lowering of DRESS, from the RP, rather than the Early Modern (southern British?) English¹, for the sentence to make sense.

¹ Do we even the phonetics of vowels then in that much detail?

I am having trouble finding good answers on this, but from what I have found it is assumed to a degree that a tense realization of DRESS, i.e. [e], is the historical one.

Speaking of lidar, what vowel do you guys have in it? I seem to raise it as /ˈləɪdɑr/ [ˈʟ̞əe̯ɾɑ(ː)ʁˤ] except when speaking carefully, where then I have /ˈlaɪˌdɑr/ [ˈʟ̞ae̯ˌdɑ(ː)ʁˤ] without raising.

Darren wrote: ↑Thu Jul 31, 2025 4:44 am American dialects have pretty much all unrounded LOT, shortened long vowels and smoothed diphthongs, but they retain rhotics.

I would say that NAE dialects have unrounded LOT with the exclusion of Eastern New England dialects and Canadian dialects, assuming you were including them under "American" dialects.

As for shortened long vowels, I would say that many of the long vowel phonemes of EngE/AusE/NZE never developed in the first place in rhotic NAE varieties, and what vowel length distinctions were inherited were obliterated by the simultaneous lengthening of short vowels before lenis obstruents.

As for rhotics, non-rhoticism is today retained largely by AAVE and ENE dialects but was at least historically found in many other East Coast and Southern dialects but is now rather recessive in them.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jul 31, 2025 5:20 pm

Darren wrote: ↑Thu Jul 31, 2025 4:44 am American dialects have pretty much all unrounded LOT, shortened long vowels and smoothed diphthongs, but they retain rhotics.

As for shortened long vowels, I would say that many of the long vowel phonemes of EngE/AusE/NZE never developed in the first place in rhotic NAE varieties, and what vowel length distinctions were inherited were obliterated by the simultaneous lengthening of short vowels before lenis obstruents.

Do we know when the new vowel length system (lengthening of vowels before voiced obstruents) in NAE evolved?

jcb wrote: ↑Thu Jul 31, 2025 10:25 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jul 31, 2025 5:20 pm

Darren wrote: ↑Thu Jul 31, 2025 4:44 am American dialects have pretty much all unrounded LOT, shortened long vowels and smoothed diphthongs, but they retain rhotics.

As for shortened long vowels, I would say that many of the long vowel phonemes of EngE/AusE/NZE never developed in the first place in rhotic NAE varieties, and what vowel length distinctions were inherited were obliterated by the simultaneous lengthening of short vowels before lenis obstruents.

Do we know when the new vowel length system (lengthening of vowels before voiced obstruents) in NAE evolved?

What we do know is that vowel length allophony, in one form or another, is common to both English and Scots as a whole, so it must date back quite far in history.

However, in EngE/AusE/NZE it takes the form of clipping, i.e. the shortening of vowels before coda fortis obstruents. This results in a pattern where, depending on the details, there may be as many as four different possible realized vowel lengths in any given syllable.

The innovation in the case of NAE appears to be extending it to a general pattern of where a fortis obstruent after a vowel (ignoring any intervening sonorants) results in a short vowel and all other cases except utterance-finally vowels are long, so as to eliminate the historical phonemic vowel length altogether.

I have not read anything about the details of when the modern NAE pattern was innovated; it could be rather old, considering that it appears to be common to present-day NAE, but sound changes in historically widespread distinctions can become universal within a short period of time (e.g. /w/ and /ʍ/, while being a historically widespread distinction, may become completely merged in NAE within a generation, as shown by being found in many spread-out relict speakers across all of NAE while being almost universally merged amongst younger speakers).

I'm not super familiar with BrEng (I'm probably more familiar with like 19th century heritage rural dialects to be honest). I forgot about lowering of TRAP in BrEng. In the Commonwealth all front vowels are raised; KIT to /i/, DRESS to /e/, TRAP to /ɛ/ (sometimes). Kiwis take it even further, with KIT to /ə/, DRESS to /ɪ/, and TRAP to /ɛ/, which is incredibly amusing. And you're right, I was overgeneralising GenAm features to 'American' dialects.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jul 31, 2025 5:20 pm As for shortened long vowels, I would say that many of the long vowel phonemes of EngE/AusE/NZE never developed in the first place in rhotic NAE varieties, and what vowel length distinctions were inherited were obliterated by the simultaneous lengthening of short vowels before lenis obstruents.

I was referring to FLEECE, GOOSE and THOUGHT especially. Regardless it applies to the fake long vowels FACE and GOAT as well.

As for rhotics, non-rhoticism is today retained largely by AAVE and ENE dialects but was at least historically found in many other East Coast and Southern dialects but is now rather recessive in them.

I did once hear a theory that AAVE is, rather than being a decreolised dialect, a fairly direct continuation of various older Midlands dialects, which (according to the second-hand source I half-remember glancing at) display pretty much all distinctive features of AAVE which have otherwise been ascribed to creolisation. I have know idea how valid or well accepted that theory is though.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jul 31, 2025 5:13 pm Speaking of lidar, what vowel do you guys have in it? I seem to raise it as /ˈləɪdɑr/ [ˈʟ̞əe̯ɾɑ(ː)ʁˤ] except when speaking carefully, where then I have /ˈlaɪˌdɑr/ [ˈʟ̞ae̯ˌdɑ(ː)ʁˤ] without raising.

I and everyone I know have something like /ˈlɑ͡ɪdɑː/, for me [ˈɫʌ͡eɾʌː]. (And note this is actually a word I use quite often.)

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Aug 01, 2025 5:39 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jul 31, 2025 5:13 pm Speaking of lidar, what vowel do you guys have in it? I seem to raise it as /ˈləɪdɑr/ [ˈʟ̞əe̯ɾɑ(ː)ʁˤ] except when speaking carefully, where then I have /ˈlaɪˌdɑr/ [ˈʟ̞ae̯ˌdɑ(ː)ʁˤ] without raising.

I and everyone I know have something like /ˈlɑ͡ɪdɑː/, for me [ˈɫʌ͡eɾʌː]. (And note this is actually a word I use quite often.)

You have [ʌ͡e] for PRICE and [ʌː] for START?

Darren wrote: ↑Fri Aug 01, 2025 4:08 am I'm not super familiar with BrEng (I'm probably more familiar with like 19th century heritage rural dialects to be honest). I forgot about lowering of TRAP in BrEng. In the Commonwealth all front vowels are raised; KIT to /i/, DRESS to /e/, TRAP to /ɛ/ (sometimes). Kiwis take it even further, with KIT to /ə/, DRESS to /ɪ/, and TRAP to /ɛ/, which is incredibly amusing. And you're right, I was overgeneralising GenAm features to 'American' dialects.

I should note, though, that to my ears at least AusE DRESS doesn't sound like my own native [e̞] ─ it seems distinctly centralized to my ears whereas my [e̞] is specifically tense even though it is not fully close-mid.

Darren wrote: ↑Fri Aug 01, 2025 4:08 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jul 31, 2025 5:20 pm As for shortened long vowels, I would say that many of the long vowel phonemes of EngE/AusE/NZE never developed in the first place in rhotic NAE varieties, and what vowel length distinctions were inherited were obliterated by the simultaneous lengthening of short vowels before lenis obstruents.

I was referring to FLEECE, GOOSE and THOUGHT especially. Regardless it applies to the fake long vowels FACE and GOAT as well.

I had gotten so used to you guys referring to FLEECE and GOOSE as vowel-consonant sequences that I didn't realize you were including those here.

Darren wrote: ↑Fri Aug 01, 2025 4:08 am

As for rhotics, non-rhoticism is today retained largely by AAVE and ENE dialects but was at least historically found in many other East Coast and Southern dialects but is now rather recessive in them.

I did once hear a theory that AAVE is, rather than being a decreolised dialect, a fairly direct continuation of various older Midlands dialects, which (according to the second-hand source I half-remember glancing at) display pretty much all distinctive features of AAVE which have otherwise been ascribed to creolisation. I have know idea how valid or well accepted that theory is though.

I have also likewise heard that AAVE is really a continuation of traditional EngE dialects which Black slaves picked up from the White indentured workers they worked alongside, ones that most present-day Americans just happen to be unfamiliar with.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Aug 01, 2025 9:49 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Aug 01, 2025 5:39 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jul 31, 2025 5:13 pm Speaking of lidar, what vowel do you guys have in it? I seem to raise it as /ˈləɪdɑr/ [ˈʟ̞əe̯ɾɑ(ː)ʁˤ] except when speaking carefully, where then I have /ˈlaɪˌdɑr/ [ˈʟ̞ae̯ˌdɑ(ː)ʁˤ] without raising.

I and everyone I know have something like /ˈlɑ͡ɪdɑː/, for me [ˈɫʌ͡eɾʌː]. (And note this is actually a word I use quite often.)

You have [ʌ͡e] for PRICE and [ʌː] for START?

Surprisingly, yes I do, or at least something like those: see the vowel systems thread (where I made some plots).

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Aug 01, 2025 10:53 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Aug 01, 2025 9:49 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Aug 01, 2025 5:39 am

I and everyone I know have something like /ˈlɑ͡ɪdɑː/, for me [ˈɫʌ͡eɾʌː]. (And note this is actually a word I use quite often.)

You have [ʌ͡e] for PRICE and [ʌː] for START?

Surprisingly, yes I do, or at least something like those: see the vowel systems thread (where I made some plots).

According to your transcriptions of your vowels, you have no true low vowels. Is this right?

Does anyone else open the vowel in the first syllable of okay? In careful speech I have /oʊˈkeɪ/ [o̞ˈkʰe̞(ː)], but in everyday speech I commonly realize it as /ɔˈkeɪ/ [ɒˈkʰe̞(ː)], which I sporadically may realize as [ɑˈkʰe̞(ː)].

Also, does anyone else's variety often drop the final /d/ in would, could, and should? In the dialect here these are commonly [wɵː], [kʷʰɵː], and [ɕʷɵː] regardless of what follows them (but especially if followed by a vowel or semivowel).

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Aug 02, 2025 9:35 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Aug 01, 2025 10:53 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Aug 01, 2025 9:49 am

You have [ʌ͡e] for PRICE and [ʌː] for START?

Surprisingly, yes I do, or at least something like those: see the vowel systems thread (where I made some plots).

According to your transcriptions of your vowels, you have no true low vowels. Is this right?

It would appear so, yes. Though I definitely have [æ], and arguably the only ‘true’ low vowel is cardinal [a]…

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Aug 02, 2025 9:44 pm Does anyone else open the vowel in the first syllable of okay? In careful speech I have /oʊˈkeɪ/ [o̞ˈkʰe̞(ː)], but in everyday speech I commonly realize it as /ɔˈkeɪ/ [ɒˈkʰe̞(ː)], which I sporadically may realize as [ɑˈkʰe̞(ː)].

I know a guy who does this (but AusEng so /ɒˈkæi̯/) and it pisses me off for some reason.

Also, does anyone else's variety often drop the final /d/ in would, could, and should? In the dialect here these are commonly [wɵː], [kʷʰɵː], and [ɕʷɵː] regardless of what follows them (but especially if followed by a vowel or semivowel).

My dialect would never allow a lax vowel in an open syllable like that

Darren wrote: ↑Mon Aug 04, 2025 3:39 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Aug 02, 2025 9:44 pm Also, does anyone else's variety often drop the final /d/ in would, could, and should? In the dialect here these are commonly [wɵː], [kʷʰɵː], and [ɕʷɵː] regardless of what follows them (but especially if followed by a vowel or semivowel).

My dialect would never allow a lax vowel in an open syllable like that

But your dialect requires syllable codas in general, IIRC.

What vowel do people have in "swollen"? I have /V/ (STRUT), but I just learned that wiktionary ( https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/swollen#English ) says the standard is /o/ (GOAT).

Listening at Youglish ( https://youglish.com/pronounce/swollen/english/us ), browsing the first dozen or so videos, (to my ears) half of the American speakers sound like they're saying /o/, and the other half /V/. The British and Australians sound much more distinctly /o/.

Maybe I have some kind prohibition against /wo/? Yet, I still have /wo/ in "woah", "woad", and "woke". (Maybe "woah" doesn't count for much, because it's an interjection.)

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Aug 06, 2025 6:48 am What vowel do people have in "swollen"? I have /V/ (STRUT), but I just learned that wiktionary ( https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/swollen#English ) says the standard is /o/ (GOAT).

I have GOAT. To me STRUT feels like it could only be a spelling pronunciation.

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Aug 06, 2025 8:45 am

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Aug 06, 2025 6:48 am What vowel do people have in "swollen"? I have /V/ (STRUT), but I just learned that wiktionary ( https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/swollen#English ) says the standard is /o/ (GOAT).

I have GOAT. To me STRUT feels like it could only be a spelling pronunciation.

In what words does "oll" indicate STRUT? Usually it's GOAT like in "roll", or sometimes LOT like in "doll". I guess I just learned that the spelling was irregular, which isn't uncommon in English, after all.

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Aug 06, 2025 9:23 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Aug 06, 2025 8:45 am

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Aug 06, 2025 6:48 am What vowel do people have in "swollen"? I have /V/ (STRUT), but I just learned that wiktionary ( https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/swollen#English ) says the standard is /o/ (GOAT).

I have GOAT. To me STRUT feels like it could only be a spelling pronunciation.

In what words does "oll" indicate STRUT? Usually it's GOAT like in "roll", or sometimes LOT like in "doll". I guess I just learned that the spelling was irregular, which isn't uncommon in English, after all.

For me ‘roll’ and ‘doll’ rhyme, because coda /l/ [w~ɰ] does weird things to vowels in Australian English. (‘Swollen’ escapes because its /l/ [ɫ] is syllabified with the next syllable.)