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Re: s

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2025 1:44 pm
by WeepingElf
Raphael wrote: Thu Apr 10, 2025 11:54 am
Mornche Geddick wrote: Thu Apr 10, 2025 11:48 am
Raphael wrote: Wed Apr 09, 2025 9:30 am Well, Mao was, I think, a librarian by training, which is not exactly an industrial proletariat profession. Anyway, if that's true, it might partly explain his popularity among upper class students who wanted to be Marxists.
Some more possibilities:

1. The Soviets had nukes and gulags. And they were (whisper) passé.
2. Maoism was exotic, new, and cool.
3. They didn't really know much about Maoism.
Exactly! I guess in the 1960s, the Soviet Block already struck young Western leftists as being as stuffy and square as the stuffiest and squarest parts of the Western World, except without consumer goods.
Yep. Those western Maoists had an idealized picture of Mao Zedong that had nothing in common with the gruesome reality of China.

Re: Some more thoughts on the Left, the Right, the Center, and myself

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2025 1:55 pm
by Raphael
I vaguely remember reading somewhere about a small Dutch far-left party at around that time which started out Maoist but then got disenchanted with Mao when he met with Richard Nixon.

Re: Some more thoughts on the Left, the Right, the Center, and myself

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2025 2:27 pm
by zompist
Mornche Geddick wrote: Wed Apr 09, 2025 7:25 am
zompist wrote: Tue Apr 08, 2025 4:25 pm However, it's a very old word, and the early uses ("towndweller", "middle class") still survive, and affect Marxism as well. Unfortunately this makes "bourgeois" a weasel word. Even in your own paragraph above, to say nothing of the leftists you're criticizing, are you consistently using it to mean "plutocrats" or to mean "middle class"?
I've got a theory that as used it generally means the writer's parents.
I expect you're right.

Also, welcome back, Mornche!

Re: Some more thoughts on the Left, the Right, the Center, and myself

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2025 2:28 pm
by Raphael
Sorry, forgot about this:
zompist wrote: Thu Apr 10, 2025 2:27 pm

Also, welcome back, Mornche!
Seconded!

Re: Some more thoughts on the Left, the Right, the Center, and myself

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2025 2:56 pm
by Travis B.
Raphael wrote: Thu Apr 10, 2025 2:28 pm Sorry, forgot about this:
zompist wrote: Thu Apr 10, 2025 2:27 pm

Also, welcome back, Mornche!
Seconded!
Thirded!

Re: Some more thoughts on the Left, the Right, the Center, and myself

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2025 3:21 pm
by Raphael
I decided to elaborate a bit more - ok, whom am I kidding, a lot more - on what I meant by the last paragraph of the opening post of this thread.
Raphael wrote: Tue Apr 08, 2025 12:37 pm
And then there's the fact that I think that the Left's policy proposals on most issues, or at least on most domestic issues, are pretty great, but most of their collections of theory contain too many falsehoods and fallacies and are just not fit for purpose.
I used to be completely skeptical about political theory. Then, people smarter than me convinced me that everyone in politics has some kind of theory, even if they're in denial about it, or think their theory is just "common sense". So now, I accept that you need to have some theory in politics. But I'm still somewhat skeptical about it. I think all too often, political theory is used as a very effective method for explaining that up is down and down is up. And I think that the world would be better off without very effective methods for explaining that up is down and down is up.

As for the specific collections of theory that are common on the Left, it's probably a good idea to throw most of them out and replace them with something new. Let me talk about them one by one.

***

The great-granddaddy of many left-wing theoretical constructs is, of course, Marxism. Now, Marx got some very basic and important things right, such as that there are many things wrong with capitalism, that class matters, and that material factors are very important in human life (though not as all-determining as he made them out to be). But he got most of the details wrong, and his followers and successors compounded those errors by insisting on treating all the details of his ideas as sacred truth.

For instance, it's way too reductionist to explain all of human history by using a simple model of six stages, where the first four are based on European history up to the 19th century, and the last two are based simply on Marx's hopes for the future. A modern, complex society usually has a lot of different classes, not just two or three; and class can be ambiguous. (In my own personal case, name a social class, and I'll tell you why I'm not a member of that class.)

And these days, there's a large number of people who don't own any means of production, who aren't part of the upper crust, who are employed or looking for employment, but who aren't any kind of industrial proletarians.

The proletariat has only acted the way Marxist theory says it should always act on relatively few occasions in history, but Marxists never concluded from this that there might be something wrong with their theory.

On a theoretical level, the core problem with Marxist theory is that Marx and Engels were trying to come up with a general theory of everything in human history, human society, and the human economy based on the knowledge available to 19th century Europeans. It was always ridiculous to assume that that might work. It's as if a medieval astronomer who didn't have access to telescopes would have tried to work out modern astrophysics.

One contradiction specific to 21st century Marxism that wasn't there from the start, but that should be pretty glaring today, is this: According to Marxist theory, everything in human life is determined by material conditions. Even things like philosophical systems are entirely the result of the material conditions under which the people who found or follow them live. But 21st century Marxists still insist that people of their time should follow a philosophy that was worked out by people who lived under very different material conditions in the 19th century.

Finally, I don't think that the thing the oppressed masses had been really waiting for, the thing that would motivate them to finally rise up and throw off their shackles, was a detailed technical discussion of how to properly define the term "commodity".

***

A while later came the Critical Theory of the Frankfurt School. Based on everything I've heard about the people behind that, they seem to have been basically a bunch of German intellectuals doing what German intellectuals generally do best: taking themselves way too seriously and being generally verbissen. Their main message seems to have been that people have an obligation to spend their whole life constantly miserable and that anyone who is ever not miserable must be either stupid or ethically rotten or both.

I'd say that if I would want to follow an ideology that tells me to be miserable all the time, I wouldn't need 20th century left-wing theorists. I could go straight to the source and sign up for the one or other form of religious fundamentalism.

You might have noticed that I talk about Critical Theory in a different section than the one about Marxism. While Critical Theory is usually seen as Marxist by both its supporters and its opponents, I don't see what's supposed to be Marxist about a bunch of middle- and upper class academics telling proletarians that all the entertainment they like is evil.

***

Then there's postmodernism. Oh dear. When it comes to questions of fundamental underlying values or basic priorities, or, for that matter, to questions of taste, you can, of course, argue all day long without ever coming to a conclusion. But on the vast majority of issues where the Left and the Right disagree about matters of fact, the Left is simply right and the Right is simply wrong. Simple as that.

And then, large parts of the Left go and embrace a philosophy that teaches that there's no right and wrong, there's no true or false, and there are no facts, because it's all just a matter of different narratives. Es ist zum Weinen. Why would someone voluntarily throw away one of their strongest and most powerful weapons? Really, this probably only makes sense if you put it into the context of the Left's perennial self-destructive tendencies.

***

Postcolonial Theory seems to be mainly the idea that every atrocity or act of mass murder should be supported, defended, justified, and never in any way criticized or punished, as long as the people who commit it claim to be serving the cause of fighting colonialism. As such, it is simply one out of many intellectual justifications for atrocities and mass murder that people have come up with throughout history, and not deserving of any more respect or consideration than all the other intellectual justifications for atrocities and mass murder.

***

Next point, feminist theory. I support many of the policy demands and demands for social and cultural change made by many feminists. But I don’t see why, if you start out with the statement "Women are people", you then have to arrive, a few rounds of elaboration later, at something like "The briziblocks are an ontomenatic expression of the mupaluscosity inherent in all klamdaburiounisness, and therefore you shouldn't [do whatever we've decided you shouldn't do this week]."

That said, at least Third Wave Feminism, whatever its other pros and cons, seems to have been an improvement over Second Wave Feminism, which apparently boiled down to the idea that all women are great and wonderful and should always be supported and respected, except for the 95 percent of women who make sartorial, cosmetic, or lifestyle choices which the Second Wave Feminists didn't like.

***

Queer Theory. See the first paragraph of what I wrote about feminist theory above.

***

The theory of Orientalism, at least if you look at how its followers usually apply it in practise, seems to mean that, while white Westerners can oppose their own unjust, repressive, and oppressive cultural traditions as much as they want, if non-Western People of Color - that is, the vast majority of people in the world - want to oppose their own unjust, repressive, and oppressive cultural traditions, they're taking part in, or at least enabling, Orientalism, and are therefore bad and wrong and should be opposed and shunned and never be supported. In other words, according to that form of theory, the vast majority of people in the world have an obligation to spend the rest of human history putting up with whatever unjust, repressive, and oppressive cultural traditions they have now, and shouldn't even ever complain about it. I don't see what's supposed to be left-wing about that.

***

The theory of intersectionality has a perfectly fine starting point: the idea that different forms of systemic oppression intersect, so that, if you belong to different marginalized groups at the same time, you'll be subject to those different forms of systemic oppression at the same time. So if, for instance, you're a Black woman, you'll be targeted by both racism and sexism, and you might still experience racism in feminist settings, and you might still experience sexism in anti-racist settings. So far, so true.

There are, however, three problems with how this is often applied in practise: First, fans of intersectionality all too often say that, since all the different forms of systemic oppression intersect, they're basically all the same, and can only be fought all at once, and there can't really be any improvements related to any of them until we've gotten rid of all of them. To me, this sounds suspiciously like the idea common in some other parts of the Left that, since True Liberation can only happen after The Revolution, we have to wait until after The Revolution with getting any concrete improvements in any aspects of people's lives. Not very promising if you don't know when, if ever, The Revolution will happen.

Related to that, fans of intersectionality all too often talk as if, because of the interconnectedness of all forms of systemic oppression, all marginalized groups should be seen as being in the same boat. That's a nice ideal, but it ignores the practical reality that some members of various marginalized groups are themselves bigoted against members of other marginalized groups, and that sometimes, specific marginalized or formerly marginalized groups end up in a better situation than before, while other marginalized groups are left behind.

Finally, some fans of intersectionality - thankfully not all of them - seem to use what they know about the oppressed or privileged status of various demographic groups as the basis for a kind of points system, where people are assigned privilege points for privileged demographic groups they belong to and oppression points for oppressed demographic groups they belong to, and then all those points are added up, and that calculation is effectively used to determine people's moral worth. Let's just say that I'm completely against assigning people moral worth based on which demographic groups they were born into.

***

Related to some forms of left-wing theory, there's the matter of inclusive language. Now, of course people should stop using terms and words and expressions that are grossly insulting. So some amount of trying to change language is a good thing. But you should be careful about how far you go with that. Beyond a certain point, inclusive language is exclusive language, because it excludes all those who either don't have the time, or don't have the energy, or don't have the interest to constantly keep themselves up to date about the latest developments in inclusive language.

Besides, the more the Left insists on always talking in its own super special language, the more difficult it becomes to spread the Left's message to most people. And I think there are many left-wing ideas that should be spread to as many people as possible.

Re: Some more thoughts on the Left, the Right, the Center, and myself

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2025 4:46 pm
by Travis B.
You know, I overall agree with everything you wrote above, which pretty much reflects my own thinking about those matters.

Re: Some more thoughts on the Left, the Right, the Center, and myself

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2025 6:26 am
by bradrn
As do I.
Raphael wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 3:21 pm Finally, some fans of intersectionality - thankfully not all of them - seem to use what they know about the oppressed or privileged status of various demographic groups as the basis for a kind of points system, where people are assigned privilege points for privileged demographic groups they belong to and oppression points for oppressed demographic groups they belong to, and then all those points are added up, and that calculation is effectively used to determine people's moral worth. Let's just say that I'm completely against assigning people moral worth based on which demographic groups they were born into.
I was actually given literally exactly this as an exercise in one class in university. The goal was to be made aware of who in that class was more privileged and who was less privileged, to raise awareness of how people have had different experiences — and it was perfectly successful at that goal. But as you say, taking it any further than ‘raising awareness’ is a bad, bad idea.

At a broader level I think this is the problem with all the varieties of leftism you review. Every one of them contains some important kernel of truth about how different people are in different situations. But their adherents have a tendency to take those ideas too far by turning them into moral judgements about who is ‘allowed’ to do atrocities.

Re: Some more thoughts on the Left, the Right, the Center, and myself

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2025 7:16 am
by WeepingElf
Left-wing political theory is indeed to a large part bullfrogs. But right-wing political theory is even worse - it is basically all about how the theorist's own "race", "nation" or "culture" was innately superior over all others, and "the past" was better than the present and needs to be brought back. And while many (not all!) leftists come up with rather good political practice despite the flawed theories, the rightists' political practice is abhorrent.

Re: Some more thoughts on the Left, the Right, the Center, and myself

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2025 7:22 am
by Raphael
bradrn wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2025 6:26 am
Raphael wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 3:21 pm Finally, some fans of intersectionality - thankfully not all of them - seem to use what they know about the oppressed or privileged status of various demographic groups as the basis for a kind of points system, where people are assigned privilege points for privileged demographic groups they belong to and oppression points for oppressed demographic groups they belong to, and then all those points are added up, and that calculation is effectively used to determine people's moral worth. Let's just say that I'm completely against assigning people moral worth based on which demographic groups they were born into.
I was actually given literally exactly this as an exercise in one class in university. The goal was to be made aware of who in that class was more privileged and who was less privileged, to raise awareness of how people have had different experiences — and it was perfectly successful at that goal. But as you say, taking it any further than ‘raising awareness’ is a bad, bad idea.
Thank you for confirming that I'm not imagining things. Somewhat related to this, once, not in a class, but on a website somewhere that I had come across somehow, out of curiosity I took a test created by some professor that was supposed to test class status. Not privilege in general, just class. As it turned out, that test never once asked how much money the test-taker actually had, or even how much money the test-taker's parents had when the test-taker was growing up.

No, it was entirely about education-related and cultural stuff. So I was assigned a really high class status because I spoke an additional languages without being a migrant - well, yes, I'm from a non-English speaking country and I speak English, so what? - and because I had sometimes travelled to foreign countries as a child - big deal if you live in a place where the nearest international borders are a few hours drives away - and because both my parents had university degrees. Never mind that I was raised by a single mom who spend the time she was raising me moving back and forth between unemployment and low-paying office jobs. Never mind that my own adult life has been so much of a mess that I never got anywhere near either a steady career or a lot of money. The test didn't ever bother to ask about stuff like that.

I guess that, if I had taken the test as part of taking one of the professor's classes, I would have gotten quite angry. And I don't doubt that, once that happened, I would have been told that I had gotten angry as a result of being made uncomfortably aware of my class privilege.

Re: Some more thoughts on the Left, the Right, the Center, and myself

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2025 7:23 am
by Raphael
WeepingElf wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2025 7:16 am Left-wing political theory is indeed to a large part bullfrogs. But right-wing political theory is even worse - it is basically all about how the theorist's own "race", "nation" or "culture" was innately superior over all others, and "the past" was better than the present and needs to be brought back. And while many (not all!) leftists come up with rather good political practice despite the flawed theories, the rightists' political practice is abhorrent.
No disagreement.

Re: Some more thoughts on the Left, the Right, the Center, and myself

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2025 4:21 pm
by zompist
I sympathize with the complaints, but without details or specific attributions, they also feel rather cherrypicked. That is, it sometimes seems that you find some dude online who bugs you, and therefore conclude that the entire system of thought he allegedly represents has something wrong with it. Maybe it does, but there's also the theory that that dude is a bit of a jerk.

I think most far leftists acknowledge that something went wrong with the Russian Revolution; the difficulty is pinning them down on what, exactly. E.g. China Miéville has a generally excellent book on the revolutions of 1918, which makes a pretty good case that they were a good thing. He ends with a chapter that breezes over the post-1918 era, not really approving, but never coming right out and saying that totalitarianism is bad and explaining what mistakes led to that outcome.

All along it's been possible to be a democratic socialist, but doing so requires opposing the totalitarians.

I think your account of "orientalism" confuses the theory with, well, everything post-colonial states have done wrong. Personally I object to theories that give agency to only the US, and only for evil things. At the same time we have to watch out for the opposite error, holding non-Western states to a higher standard only when leftists are in charge, a habit which plays into the hands of the right. (As just one example, think about accusations of "corruption" in Latin America. Sometimes these charges are even true— but the thing that's omitted is the greater corruption when right-wingers are in power.)
Related to some forms of left-wing theory, there's the matter of inclusive language. Now, of course people should stop using terms and words and expressions that are grossly insulting. So some amount of trying to change language is a good thing. But you should be careful about how far you go with that. Beyond a certain point, inclusive language is exclusive language, because it excludes all those who either don't have the time, or don't have the energy, or don't have the interest to constantly keep themselves up to date about the latest developments in inclusive language.
This is a common complaint, and I think anyone on the left occasionally feels tired: there's always something new to worry about. But I think I'd turn it around: why do you think keeping up to date is an imposition? Is it an imposition if, say, you have to read a new manual (or watch a new Youtube video) to use the latest tech, or to read the news in order to vote wisely?

In any oppression ever, progress has never come because the protesters asked sweetly and the oppressors nicely gave in. It always takes pressure, incivility, and sometimes violence. (Very often the 'moderate' protesters only seem so because in the background are 'extremists' who threaten something more.)

And again, sometimes an activist is ill-informed, or something of a jerk. But to get too agitated about these people is to run the risk of turning into one of those center-right grumblers on the NYT editorial page.
So I was assigned a really high class status because I spoke an additional languages without being a migrant - well, yes, I'm from a non-English speaking country and I speak English, so what? - and because I had sometimes travelled to foreign countries as a child - big deal if you live in a place where the nearest international borders are a few hours drives away - and because both my parents had university degrees.
I'm guessing that this test was devised by an American, or possibly a Brit. (And you can add Americocentrism to the list of leftist sins; American activists can cause a lot of harm assuming that every place in the world acts like the US.)

Re: Some more thoughts on the Left, the Right, the Center, and myself

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2025 5:41 pm
by Travis B.
zompist wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2025 4:21 pm I sympathize with the complaints, but without details or specific attributions, they also feel rather cherrypicked. That is, it sometimes seems that you find some dude online who bugs you, and therefore conclude that the entire system of thought he allegedly represents has something wrong with it. Maybe it does, but there's also the theory that that dude is a bit of a jerk.
Many of these issues are familiar to me, and are not simply a matter of someone being wrong on teh Internet. Yes, they may be a disparate smattering issues, but that does not mean that they are not important.
zompist wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2025 4:21 pm I think most far leftists acknowledge that something went wrong with the Russian Revolution; the difficulty is pinning them down on what, exactly. E.g. China Miéville has a generally excellent book on the revolutions of 1918, which makes a pretty good case that they were a good thing. He ends with a chapter that breezes over the post-1918 era, not really approving, but never coming right out and saying that totalitarianism is bad and explaining what mistakes led to that outcome.

All along it's been possible to be a democratic socialist, but doing so requires opposing the totalitarians.
Probably the people who have been best aware of what was truly bad about the Russian Revolution are the anarchists out of anyone, it should be noted. Right-wing criticisms of Communism tend to actually partly overlook the fact that it is Communism's authoritarianism that was truly bad with it as they often distract one with misguided 'economic' criticisms of the Left (e.g. claiming that Communism was bad because of 'collectivism' and whatnot).
zompist wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2025 4:21 pm I think your account of "orientalism" confuses the theory with, well, everything post-colonial states have done wrong. Personally I object to theories that give agency to only the US, and only for evil things. At the same time we have to watch out for the opposite error, holding non-Western states to a higher standard only when leftists are in charge, a habit which plays into the hands of the right. (As just one example, think about accusations of "corruption" in Latin America. Sometimes these charges are even true— but the thing that's omitted is the greater corruption when right-wingers are in power.)
Just because the Right likes to overlook the many crimes and failings of right-wing regimes in places does not mean that the authoritarian Left does not do the same for ostensibly left-wing regimes. The authoritarian Left is notoriously prone to engaging in campism and overlooking the negatives of regimes in their chosen camp. But I agree that we should not hold left-wing regimes to a higher standard than right-wing regimes.
zompist wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2025 4:21 pm
Related to some forms of left-wing theory, there's the matter of inclusive language. Now, of course people should stop using terms and words and expressions that are grossly insulting. So some amount of trying to change language is a good thing. But you should be careful about how far you go with that. Beyond a certain point, inclusive language is exclusive language, because it excludes all those who either don't have the time, or don't have the energy, or don't have the interest to constantly keep themselves up to date about the latest developments in inclusive language.
This is a common complaint, and I think anyone on the left occasionally feels tired: there's always something new to worry about. But I think I'd turn it around: why do you think keeping up to date is an imposition? Is it an imposition if, say, you have to read a new manual (or watch a new Youtube video) to use the latest tech, or to read the news in order to vote wisely?
A good example of what Raphael refers to here is the tendency of leftists to attempt to redefine terms for polemical purposes, and then insist on that everyone else use their definitions. One particular case that really comes to mind is how many 'social justice' activist types have attempted to replace the common definition of 'racism' that most people use (i.e. racial prejudice) with their own definition of 'a societal power structure based on racial hierarchy with White people on the top' because it suits their purposes and then complain when people don't use the term how they think it ought to be used.
zompist wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2025 4:21 pm In any oppression ever, progress has never come because the protesters asked sweetly and the oppressors nicely gave in. It always takes pressure, incivility, and sometimes violence. (Very often the 'moderate' protesters only seem so because in the background are 'extremists' who threaten something more.)
I don't think that Raphael was saying anything that disagrees with this -- but just because, as they say, sometimes a few eggs need to be broken to make an omelette doesn't mean that there aren't fundamental issues with certain sections of the Left.
zompist wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2025 4:21 pm And again, sometimes an activist is ill-informed, or something of a jerk. But to get too agitated about these people is to run the risk of turning into one of those center-right grumblers on the NYT editorial page.
At the same time, one needs to stand up to people on the Left who are counterproductive to its basic purposes, be they authoritarian Communists who would be totalitarians if allowed near actual power (even if they are useful as activists per se), 'social justice' activists who liberally engage in Oppression Olympics, second-wave feminists who will gladly attack other women if they do not meet their expectations of what they think women ought to be like, and so on.

Re: Some more thoughts on the Left, the Right, the Center, and myself

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2025 6:48 am
by Raphael
zompist, I keep thinking about your post, and keep not being sure what I think about it.
zompist wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2025 4:21 pm I sympathize with the complaints, but without details or specific attributions, they also feel rather cherrypicked. That is, it sometimes seems that you find some dude online who bugs you, and therefore conclude that the entire system of thought he allegedly represents has something wrong with it. Maybe it does, but there's also the theory that that dude is a bit of a jerk.
I admit that I haven't read many theoretical works. Frankly, I think there are more interesting and productive uses of my time. But, well, I follow the news, I read a lot on history and current affairs, and I observe what kind of things followers of various theories do and say. IMO, that gives me a good impression of what I see as the most important aspect of a theory: which actions it inspires in its followers.

And even when it comes to the, well, theoretical content of theories, I think you can often get a good impression of that from reading summaries.
I think most far leftists acknowledge that something went wrong with the Russian Revolution; the difficulty is pinning them down on what, exactly. E.g. China Miéville has a generally excellent book on the revolutions of 1918, which makes a pretty good case that they were a good thing. He ends with a chapter that breezes over the post-1918 era, not really approving, but never coming right out and saying that totalitarianism is bad and explaining what mistakes led to that outcome.

All along it's been possible to be a democratic socialist, but doing so requires opposing the totalitarians.
No disagreement, but I'm not sure what you're responding to there. I didn't talk about totalitarian leftists in power at all. Even my section on Marxism was entirely about what I see as its theoretical flaws.
I think your account of "orientalism" confuses the theory with, well, everything post-colonial states have done wrong. Personally I object to theories that give agency to only the US, and only for evil things. At the same time we have to watch out for the opposite error, holding non-Western states to a higher standard only when leftists are in charge, a habit which plays into the hands of the right. (As just one example, think about accusations of "corruption" in Latin America. Sometimes these charges are even true— but the thing that's omitted is the greater corruption when right-wingers are in power.)
Huh? I wasn't talking about states in that paragraph. I was talking about how, in my experience, people - usually private individuals - use the charge of orientalism. In my experience, when I hear about orientalism, it's usually because someone criticized a deeply unjust, cruel, repressive, or reactionary aspect of a non-Western culture, and then someone else reacted to that by accusing the first person of orientalism. That makes me deeply suspicious of anyone who seriously uses that term.
This is a common complaint, and I think anyone on the left occasionally feels tired: there's always something new to worry about. But I think I'd turn it around: why do you think keeping up to date is an imposition? Is it an imposition if, say, you have to read a new manual (or watch a new Youtube video) to use the latest tech, or to read the news in order to vote wisely?
Fair question. Not sure what I think about that.
In any oppression ever, progress has never come because the protesters asked sweetly and the oppressors nicely gave in. It always takes pressure, incivility, and sometimes violence.
Well, I don't agree that the main oppression of our time is people using language activists don't like, that progress is mainly a matter of changing that, or that not using activists' preferred language makes one an oppressor.

I'm guessing that this test was devised by an American, or possibly a Brit.
I don't think it was a Brit. British academics are probably aware of how many of their country's working class people regularly fly to Spain to bake in the sun and anger the locals.
(And you can add Americocentrism to the list of leftist sins; American activists can cause a lot of harm assuming that every place in the world acts like the US.)
Good point.
Travis B. wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2025 5:41 pm Right-wing criticisms of Communism tend to actually partly overlook the fact that it is Communism's authoritarianism that was truly bad with it as they often distract one with misguided 'economic' criticisms of the Left (e.g. claiming that Communism was bad because of 'collectivism' and whatnot).
I think I vaguely remember reading somewhere that in the first years after 1917, some right-wingers actually criticized the Soviet System for being too chaotic.


A good example of what Raphael refers to here is the tendency of leftists to attempt to redefine terms for polemical purposes, and then insist on that everyone else use their definitions. One particular case that really comes to mind is how many 'social justice' activist types have attempted to replace the common definition of 'racism' that most people use (i.e. racial prejudice) with their own definition of 'a societal power structure based on racial hierarchy with White people on the top' because it suits their purposes and then complain when people don't use the term how they think it ought to be used.
Sorry Travis, but on this, I disagree with you. By now, the new meaning of the term "racism" should be well-enough established to be uncontroversial.

Re: Some more thoughts on the Left, the Right, the Center, and myself

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2025 7:09 am
by bradrn
zompist wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2025 4:21 pm
Related to some forms of left-wing theory, there's the matter of inclusive language. Now, of course people should stop using terms and words and expressions that are grossly insulting. So some amount of trying to change language is a good thing. But you should be careful about how far you go with that. Beyond a certain point, inclusive language is exclusive language, because it excludes all those who either don't have the time, or don't have the energy, or don't have the interest to constantly keep themselves up to date about the latest developments in inclusive language.
This is a common complaint, and I think anyone on the left occasionally feels tired: there's always something new to worry about. But I think I'd turn it around: why do you think keeping up to date is an imposition? Is it an imposition if, say, you have to read a new manual (or watch a new Youtube video) to use the latest tech, or to read the news in order to vote wisely?
My own thoughts are as follows: personally I don’t find it much of an imposition at all, but I think it can become an imposition on people who are less politically engaged. I have older relatives who are perfectly good-intentioned and tolerant people, but are increasingly bewildered by the terminology being used, to the extent that they have wondered if it’s still OK to call someone ‘him’ or ’her’. I try to help them understand, but it’s difficult, and I think that ultimately this usage is best learnt by being actively involved in certain social circles. Simply reading the news is often not enough.

Of course, none of this is a problem if the people you’re talking to are happy with a good-faith effort, rather than demanding perfect language purity. I’ve been lucky enough to be in such communities (including this one, which is largely very tolerant). But I’m sure you’ve heard of cases where that hasn’t happened and things have turned nasty, and that definitely hurts the overall cause of leftism.

Re: Some more thoughts on the Left, the Right, the Center, and myself

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2025 8:20 am
by Travis B.
Raphael wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 6:48 am
A good example of what Raphael refers to here is the tendency of leftists to attempt to redefine terms for polemical purposes, and then insist on that everyone else use their definitions. One particular case that really comes to mind is how many 'social justice' activist types have attempted to replace the common definition of 'racism' that most people use (i.e. racial prejudice) with their own definition of 'a societal power structure based on racial hierarchy with White people on the top' because it suits their purposes and then complain when people don't use the term how they think it ought to be used.
Sorry Travis, but on this, I disagree with you. By now, the new meaning of the term "racism" should be well-enough established to be uncontroversial.
From my experience people here still largely don't use the activists' meaning of 'racism' and 'racist'. When someone calls someone else 'racist' it means they are being referred to as racially prejudiced, and the person being referred to can be of any race (as can whoever it is claimed they are racially prejudiced towards). Everyday people haven't bought into the activists' nonsense that only White people can be 'racist' (or that all White people are 'racist'). Case in point: some Black people being referred to as 'racist' against Asian people during the upsurge in anti-Asian bigotry during COVID. This makes activists' attempted redefinition of the terms 'racism' and 'racist' a good example of them creating their own private language divorced from how most people speak.

Re: Some more thoughts on the Left, the Right, the Center, and myself

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2025 8:36 am
by Raphael
Travis B. wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 8:20 am

From my experience people here still largely don't use the activists' meaning of 'racism' and 'racist'. When someone calls someone else 'racist' it means they are being referred to as racially prejudiced, and the person being referred to can be of any race (as can whoever it is claimed they are racially prejudiced towards). Everyday people haven't bought into the activists' nonsense that only White people can be 'racist' (or that all White people are 'racist'). Case in point: some Black people being referred to as 'racist' against Asian people during the upsurge in anti-Asian bigotry during COVID. This makes activists' attempted redefinition of the terms 'racism' and 'racist' a good example of them creating their own private language divorced from how most people speak.
OK, I have very mixed feelings about this. I'd say that PoCs from different groups of PoCs can definitely be racist against each other - I mean calling such behavior or attitudes anything else than racism is arguably a euphemism. But I kind of accept the activists' points on PoCs' attitudes towards white people.

Re: Some more thoughts on the Left, the Right, the Center, and myself

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2025 12:47 pm
by Travis B.
Raphael wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 8:36 am
Travis B. wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 8:20 am From my experience people here still largely don't use the activists' meaning of 'racism' and 'racist'. When someone calls someone else 'racist' it means they are being referred to as racially prejudiced, and the person being referred to can be of any race (as can whoever it is claimed they are racially prejudiced towards). Everyday people haven't bought into the activists' nonsense that only White people can be 'racist' (or that all White people are 'racist'). Case in point: some Black people being referred to as 'racist' against Asian people during the upsurge in anti-Asian bigotry during COVID. This makes activists' attempted redefinition of the terms 'racism' and 'racist' a good example of them creating their own private language divorced from how most people speak.
OK, I have very mixed feelings about this. I'd say that PoCs from different groups of PoCs can definitely be racist against each other - I mean calling such behavior or attitudes anything else than racism is arguably a euphemism. But I kind of accept the activists' points on PoCs' attitudes towards white people.
I am myself more willing to accept the idea that PoC's aren't racist against White people in the context of European and European colonial societies (this does not apply in cases like Japanese society) than the idea that PoC's can't be racist period, as that negates bigotry of PoC's towards other groups of PoC's. While some activist types have tried to redefine such bigotry as 'colorism', itself a case of private activist language, the problem with that is that 'colorism' properly refers to prejudice within a race or ethnic group on the basis of the tone of one's skin (e.g. the infamous 'paper bag test' within American Black culture in times past), and does not apply across races or ethnicities (e.g. my example of bigotry by Blacks towards Asians).

Re: Some more thoughts on the Left, the Right, the Center, and myself

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2025 12:52 pm
by Raphael
Travis B. wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 12:47 pm than the idea that PoC's can't be racist period, as that negates bigotry of PoC's towards other groups of PoC's. While some activist types have tried to redefine such bigotry as 'colorism', itself a case of private activist language, the problem with that is that 'colorism' properly refers to prejudice within a race or ethnic group on the basis of the tone of one's skin (e.g. the infamous 'paper bag test' within American Black culture in times past), and does not apply across races or ethnicities (e.g. my example of bigotry by Blacks towards Asians).
I kind of wonder what trophy people are hoping to win if they claim that their specific form of ethnic bigotry is technically colorism rather than racism.

Re: Some more thoughts on the Left, the Right, the Center, and myself

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 2:23 am
by rotting bones
Some points:

The best religious texts have worse implications than the worst canonical books on leftist theory. If we are going to study religion anyway, why not leftist theory?

Did you know Plato bans poets in his utopia? Would you refuse to read Plato? Whether they are right or wrong, studying deeply considered opinions is one way to get smarter. If done well, you can sometimes predict what conclusions people will come to once they think things through.
Raphael wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 3:21 pm But he got most of the details wrong
He got most of it right. The writings of Marx are not particularly deterministic about much of anything. It's all fairly open-ended and tentative. So much so that it's hard for new readers to follow. There is often no clear party line like readers are used to under capitalism, except in polemics like the Communist Manifesto. That said, I think the Marxist division of history is much more useful than many others that are in circulation, like ancient, medieval and modern.
Raphael wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 3:21 pm and his followers and successors compounded those errors by insisting on treating all the details of his ideas as sacred truth.
This is itself an instance of "up is down and down is up". Marxists have radically reinterpreted his doctrine throughout history, as you yourself mention in the context of Critical Theory. Paul Cockshott describes himself as a Marxist, and he doesn't accept dialectics at all. He explicitly describes himself as a "mechanical materialist". See Defending Materialism: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F9EZ-- ... p=drivesdk

Why, then, describe yourself as a Marxist? Because almost no one who doesn't describe themselves as Marxist understands what it means to take a materially reductive view of history and politics. Liberals usually don't want to do it. They tend to think it's immoral. E.g. Rawls combines moral philosophy with a consensus view. A few fascists imagine they are materialists, but they are wrong about what they themselves are actually doing.
Raphael wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 3:21 pm And these days, there's a large number of people who don't own any means of production, who aren't part of the upper crust, who are employed or looking for employment, but who aren't any kind of industrial proletarians.
When Marx was writing, "upper class" meant land-owning nobility. "Middle class" meant factory owner. "Lower class" meant workers and peasants. Convincing some workers that they are "middle class" by manipulating imperialist reserve currencies might have been the biggest coup for capitalism in the last hundred years.

As for you and I, I think Marx would have called us lumpenproletariat, beggars and criminals.
Raphael wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 3:21 pm On a theoretical level, the core problem with Marxist theory is that Marx and Engels were trying to come up with a general theory of everything in human history, human society, and the human economy based on the knowledge available to 19th century Europeans. It was always ridiculous to assume that that might work. It's as if a medieval astronomer who didn't have access to telescopes would have tried to work out modern astrophysics.
Newton called his theory "System of the World", much more ambitious than anything Marx attempted, influenced as he was by Hegelian relativism. In fact, one of the craziest parts of Marxist dialectics is Marx's refusal to create detailed plans in advance. He insists that revolutionaries remain flexible and respond to the moment. He calls advance planning "idealism" (Edit: Well, usually "utopian socialism".). It's very much the Promised Neverland approach: "Let's run away together. We'll figure it out later."
Raphael wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 3:21 pm One contradiction specific to 21st century Marxism that wasn't there from the start, but that should be pretty glaring today, is this: According to Marxist theory, everything in human life is determined by material conditions. Even things like philosophical systems are entirely the result of the material conditions under which the people who found or follow them live. But 21st century Marxists still insist that people of their time should follow a philosophy that was worked out by people who lived under very different material conditions in the 19th century.
Marxists constantly talk about how their own theories are the outcome of material developments. See either Defending Materialism or Negative Dialectics.
Raphael wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 3:21 pm Finally, I don't think that the thing the oppressed masses had been really waiting for, the thing that would motivate them to finally rise up and throw off their shackles, was a detailed technical discussion of how to properly define the term "commodity".
Without definitions, you will end up with a poorly defined economic theory. This seems like the wrong way to approach any science. I'm not sure I want to live in a country redesigned by economists who don't agree on what their terms mean.
Raphael wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 3:21 pm A while later came the Critical Theory of the Frankfurt School. Based on everything I've heard about the people behind that, they seem to have been basically a bunch of German intellectuals doing what German intellectuals generally do best: taking themselves way too seriously and being generally verbissen. Their main message seems to have been that people have an obligation to spend their whole life constantly miserable and that anyone who is ever not miserable must be either stupid or ethically rotten or both.
They had just lived through Hitler! On top of that, the Marxist revolution had been co-opted by authoritarians. A lot of Americans are pretty depressed right now. They had been taught in German schools that German culture is the epitome of civilization. They were trying to figure out how the epitome of civilization could have led to Hitler.

Adorno agrees with your distrust of theory. His Negative Dialectics is an argument from within the language of theory showing that theories do not completely capture objective reality. He tries to do this without relegating objective reality to a transcendental beyond like Kant.

More broadly, just as revolutionaries are supposed to fight in the streets and factories, some intellectuals thought it would make sense to continue the same fight in the cultural realm. They thought that unequal power dynamics have distorted the meanings of everyday language. For example, when people think of burgers, the first thing in their mind is giving money to FakeChicken Corp.

At a conservative estimate, I'd say at least 80% of the history and fiction that's promoted today is pro-capitalist in content or framing. If you think the capitalist marketplace is open and unbiased, try to find an English translation of The Bells of Basel by Louis Aragon. By comparison, it's trivially easy to find a copy of the Natya Shastra in English. Consider that people vote for Trump because they have seen him playing a savvy businessman on TV.

Some of these intellectuals thought they could restore the values of material signs through cultural critique. They called this the fight against "ideology". This usage of the term "ideology" is very Marxist. Nowadays, people call Marxism an "ideology". Marxists disagree with this usage. They insist that Marxism is a movement for scientific socialism. Many did take this way too far, e.g. insisting you have to reframe every transition in physics in terms of punctuated equilibria or whatever. I think the description of Marxism as an "ideology" started as ironic banter that became accepted as common usage.
Raphael wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 3:21 pm Then there's postmodernism. Oh dear. When it comes to questions of fundamental underlying values or basic priorities, or, for that matter, to questions of taste, you can, of course, argue all day long without ever coming to a conclusion. But on the vast majority of issues where the Left and the Right disagree about matters of fact, the Left is simply right and the Right is simply wrong. Simple as that.
1. They are humanities majors complaining about the STEM takeover!

2. This is an oversimplification along many angles. Many of the postmodernists weren't particularly leftist. Their whole thought is based on chugging alcohol and complaining about the impossibility of meaningful resistance.
Raphael wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 3:21 pm Postcolonial Theory seems to be mainly the idea that every atrocity or act of mass murder should be supported, defended, justified, and never in any way criticized or punished, as long as the people who commit it claim to be serving the cause of fighting colonialism. As such, it is simply one out of many intellectual justifications for atrocities and mass murder that people have come up with throughout history, and not deserving of any more respect or consideration than all the other intellectual justifications for atrocities and mass murder.
Every interest will amplify the voices that vindicate it. There is no "leftist theory", only every possible combination of particles interacting in space. Since there are more wrong ideas than right ones, most theories will be wrong a priori.
Raphael wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 3:21 pm Next point, feminist theory. I support many of the policy demands and demands for social and cultural change made by many feminists. But I don’t see why, if you start out with the statement "Women are people", you then have to arrive, a few rounds of elaboration later, at something like "The briziblocks are an ontomenatic expression of the mupaluscosity inherent in all klamdaburiounisness, and therefore you shouldn't [do whatever we've decided you shouldn't do this week]."
Obsessive readers enjoy writing styles that use big words. I like Nabokov's Ada even though I don't expect to learn any theory from it. Humanities students tend to be obsessive readers. Personally, I enjoy the writing styles that turn a lot of STEM majors off humanities papers.

As a cishet male, I better quit while I'm ahead. I wrote way too much anyway.