Zompist Bboard Again

I've been reading about the Staatsräson in Germany, and it is frankly utterly appalling. While I complain about anti-Semitism by opponents of Israel, the German government has done the opposite extreme and essentially tried to ban all criticism of Israel of any sort, and ironically has disproportionately targeted Jewish critics of Israel and Israeli policy. There is much legitimate reason to be completely opposed to everything the Israeli government and Zionists (e.g. Jewish settlers) have been doing that is not anti-Semitism, and "anti-Semitism" has become an obvious excuse to just quash all opposition to these things.

If the German posters here do not want to respond to this post, that is fine, as the German gov't has done things like freeze the bank accounts of critics of Israel and Israeli policy simply because of things that they have said or even attempted to say. This is how bad it is.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Oct 29, 2025 3:45 pm I've been reading about the Staatsräson in Germany, and it is frankly utterly appalling. While I complain about anti-Semitism by opponents of Israel, the German government has done the opposite extreme and essentially tried to ban all criticism of Israel of any sort, and ironically has disproportionately targeted Jewish critics of Israel and Israeli policy. There is much legitimate reason to be completely opposed to everything the Israeli government and Zionists (e.g. Jewish settlers) have been doing that is not anti-Semitism, and "anti-Semitism" has become an obvious excuse to just quash all opposition to these things.

If the German posters here do not want to respond to this post, that is fine, as the German gov't has done things like freeze the bank accounts of critics of Israel and Israeli policy simply because of things that they have said or even attempted to say. This is how bad it is.

And it doesn't even make sense as Staatsräson. Given the level of, err, "popularity" that Israel has around the world these days, there's no way this stuff serves any long-term German interests.

However, I strongly suspect that the texts you've read on that matter might be way over the top. There very much is a lot of criticism of Israel and Israeli policies being published in Germany.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Oct 29, 2025 3:58 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Oct 29, 2025 3:45 pm I've been reading about the Staatsräson in Germany, and it is frankly utterly appalling. While I complain about anti-Semitism by opponents of Israel, the German government has done the opposite extreme and essentially tried to ban all criticism of Israel of any sort, and ironically has disproportionately targeted Jewish critics of Israel and Israeli policy. There is much legitimate reason to be completely opposed to everything the Israeli government and Zionists (e.g. Jewish settlers) have been doing that is not anti-Semitism, and "anti-Semitism" has become an obvious excuse to just quash all opposition to these things.

If the German posters here do not want to respond to this post, that is fine, as the German gov't has done things like freeze the bank accounts of critics of Israel and Israeli policy simply because of things that they have said or even attempted to say. This is how bad it is.

And it doesn't even make sense as Staatsräson. Given the level of, err, "popularity" that Israel has around the world these days, there's no way this stuff serves any long-term German interests.

However, I strongly suspect that the texts you've read on that matter might be way over the top. There very much is a lot of criticism of Israel and Israeli policies being published in Germany.

Considering that a lot of that reading was on the Wiki...

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Oct 29, 2025 3:45 pm I've been reading about the Staatsräson in Germany, and it is frankly utterly appalling. While I complain about anti-Semitism by opponents of Israel, the German government has done the opposite extreme and essentially tried to ban all criticism of Israel of any sort, and ironically has disproportionately targeted Jewish critics of Israel and Israeli policy. There is much legitimate reason to be completely opposed to everything the Israeli government and Zionists (e.g. Jewish settlers) have been doing that is not anti-Semitism, and "anti-Semitism" has become an obvious excuse to just quash all opposition to these things.

If the German posters here do not want to respond to this post, that is fine, as the German gov't has done things like freeze the bank accounts of critics of Israel and Israeli policy simply because of things that they have said or even attempted to say. This is how bad it is.

Do you have any links to your sources? I suspect as well that the reports you read are exaggerated.

Germany is a strong supporter of Israel, sometimes beyond reason. But German public opinion is decidedly critical of Israel lately.
Scholz publicly criticized Israeli policy on occasion. It was rather mild criticism, but criticism nonetheless.

Pro-Palestinian organizations are closely watched, in a very zealous way that does border on violating civic rights. That's not specifically German. As far as I know, it happens in most Western countries. It also happens in the US; it certainly happens here in France as well, and it doesn't prevent very vocal opposition to Israel.

Yeah, the thing is, many supporters of Israel, but also some supporters of the Palestinian cause, have roughly the psychological approach towards things or events that might be worrying from their perspective that malloc has towards AI. And reports about things that are happening can sometimes end up like a game of "Telephone". As for Wikipedia, it's a lot more reliable and has better safeguards than 20 years ago, but articles on highly contentious issues can still leave people with misleading impressions.

Many Germans feel that they are indebted to the Jewish people after the Holocaust, and hence mainstream politicians say that the well-being of Israel is German raison e'état. And most Germans consider the Hamas a terrorist group whose actions and whose rule over the Gaza strip are brutal and illegitimate. Yet, many Germans (including me) think that the Netanyahu regime has overreacted, and that Palestinians have human rights, too. But pro-Palestine protests attract antisemites and Islamists en masse, which is why many people avoid them though they feel for the Palestinians. It is legal in Germany and IMHO also legitimate to publicly criticize the Israeli government, but you have to be aware who will join the bandwagon.

In my own case, I personally believe that Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza ideally should be unified as a single, democratic state with citizenship, equal rights, a right to return, and constitutional guarantees of protection for both Jews and Palestinians. Yet I get the impression that such a position might not be allowed in Germany today as it 'denies Israel's right to exist'.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Oct 30, 2025 9:36 am In my own case, I personally believe that Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza ideally should be unified as a single, democratic state with citizenship, equal rights, a right to return, and constitutional guarantees of protection for both Jews and Palestinians. Yet I get the impression that such a position might not be allowed in Germany today as it 'denies Israel's right to exist'.

Supporting that will get you criticised, of course, but it's not in any way illegal.

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Oct 30, 2025 9:38 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Oct 30, 2025 9:36 am In my own case, I personally believe that Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza ideally should be unified as a single, democratic state with citizenship, equal rights, a right to return, and constitutional guarantees of protection for both Jews and Palestinians. Yet I get the impression that such a position might not be allowed in Germany today as it 'denies Israel's right to exist'.

Supporting that will get you criticised, of course, but it's not in any way illegal.

The reason why I would think that is that from what I read the "3 'D's test" is used to determine whether speech vis-a-vis Israel is allowed, and advocating for the replacement of the State of Israel with a shared national homeland for both Jews and Palestinians seems like it may be regarded by some as "delegitimization of Israel" and thus violate the "3 'D's test".

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 10:52 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Oct 30, 2025 9:38 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Oct 30, 2025 9:36 am In my own case, I personally believe that Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza ideally should be unified as a single, democratic state with citizenship, equal rights, a right to return, and constitutional guarantees of protection for both Jews and Palestinians. Yet I get the impression that such a position might not be allowed in Germany today as it 'denies Israel's right to exist'.

Supporting that will get you criticised, of course, but it's not in any way illegal.

The reason why I would think that is that from what I read the "3 'D's test" is used to determine whether speech vis-a-vis Israel is allowed, and advocating for the replacement of the State of Israel with a shared national homeland for both Jews and Palestinians seems like it may be regarded by some as "delegitimization of Israel" and thus violate the "3 'D's test".

I don’t think so? Suggesting that two countries should be merged is not the same thing as attacking the legitimacy of an already-existing country.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 10:52 am

The reason why I would think that is that from what I read the "3 'D's test" is used to determine whether speech vis-a-vis Israel is allowed, and advocating for the replacement of the State of Israel with a shared national homeland for both Jews and Palestinians seems like it may be regarded by some as "delegitimization of Israel" and thus violate the "3 'D's test".

What do you mean by "allowed" in this context? In which context is that "3 'D's test" used? Who has been fined or imprisoned for failing it?

I strongly suspect that the sources from which you get your information about all this are conflating "stuff that will get you heavily criticized if you say it" and "stuff that will get you into actual trouble with the authorities if you say it". Which, IMNSHO, is usually one of the more ridiculous and pathetic right-wing habits, which left-wingers should mock and not imitate.

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 11:46 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 10:52 am

The reason why I would think that is that from what I read the "3 'D's test" is used to determine whether speech vis-a-vis Israel is allowed, and advocating for the replacement of the State of Israel with a shared national homeland for both Jews and Palestinians seems like it may be regarded by some as "delegitimization of Israel" and thus violate the "3 'D's test".

What do you mean by "allowed" in this context? In which context is that "3 'D's test" used? Who has been fined or imprisoned for failing it?

I strongly suspect that the sources from which you get your information about all this are conflating "stuff that will get you heavily criticized if you say it" and "stuff that will get you into actual trouble with the authorities if you say it". Which, IMNSHO, is usually one of the more ridiculous and pathetic right-wing habits, which left-wingers should mock and not imitate.

Just as a source, I was looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-anti ... in_Germany. And I swear I specifically saw the "3 'D's test" mentioned in this page, but now I cannot find it.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 12:08 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 11:46 am
What do you mean by "allowed" in this context? In which context is that "3 'D's test" used? Who has been fined or imprisoned for failing it?

I strongly suspect that the sources from which you get your information about all this are conflating "stuff that will get you heavily criticized if you say it" and "stuff that will get you into actual trouble with the authorities if you say it". Which, IMNSHO, is usually one of the more ridiculous and pathetic right-wing habits, which left-wingers should mock and not imitate.

Just as a source, I was looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-anti ... in_Germany. And I swear I specifically saw the "3 'D's test" mentioned in this page, but now I cannot find it.

I notice that the very second paragraph of that page uses the phrase "arrested and cancelled". As if those two things were the same or comparable. That's exactly the mental habit I was getting at in my previous post.

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 12:23 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 12:08 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 11:46 am
What do you mean by "allowed" in this context? In which context is that "3 'D's test" used? Who has been fined or imprisoned for failing it?

I strongly suspect that the sources from which you get your information about all this are conflating "stuff that will get you heavily criticized if you say it" and "stuff that will get you into actual trouble with the authorities if you say it". Which, IMNSHO, is usually one of the more ridiculous and pathetic right-wing habits, which left-wingers should mock and not imitate.

Just as a source, I was looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-anti ... in_Germany. And I swear I specifically saw the "3 'D's test" mentioned in this page, but now I cannot find it.

I notice that the very second paragraph of that page uses the phrase "arrested and cancelled". As if those two things were the same or comparable. That's exactly the mental habit I was getting at in my previous post.

From reading further in the text, such 'canceling' has taken the form of things such as freezing bank accounts and preventing individuals from entering Germany.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 12:27 pm

From reading further in the text, such 'canceling' has taken the form of things such as freezing bank accounts and preventing individuals from entering Germany.

Further in the text, there's an entire section called "deplatforming and arrest of Jews". The same conflation again, as if deplatforming people would be the same as arresting them. And then the "of Jews" part, as if it would somehow be inherently absurd to accuse Jews of antisemitism. Have you ever heard about what the late Phyllis Schlafly* had to say on gender relations? It is perfectly possible to belong to a historically disadvantaged group and be bigoted against that group.

Now, personally, I think it makes a lot more sense to describe Jews who love Donald Trump or Elon Musk, or who say or write vitriol-laced things about the largest Jewish diaspora community, as Jewish antisemites. But the larger point is that there's nothing inherently wrong with accusing specific Jews of antisemitism, and it's silly to pretend that there is.

*Dear makers of my spellcheck, I can understand it if you underline "Schlafly", but "Phyllis"? That seems to be a somewhat common given name.

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 12:42 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 12:27 pm From reading further in the text, such 'canceling' has taken the form of things such as freezing bank accounts and preventing individuals from entering Germany.

Further in the text, there's an entire section called "deplatforming and arrest of Jews". The same conflation again, as if deplatforming people would be the same as arresting them. And then the "of Jews" part, as if it would somehow be inherently absurd to accuse Jews of antisemitism. Have you ever heard about what the late Phyllis Schlafly* had to say on gender relations? It is perfectly possible to belong to a historically disadvantaged group and be bigoted against that group.

Now, personally, I think it makes a lot more sense to describe Jews who love Donald Trump or Elon Musk, or who say or write vitriol-laced things about the largest Jewish diaspora community, as Jewish antisemites. But the larger point is that there's nothing inherently wrong with accusing specific Jews of antisemitism, and it's silly to pretend that there is.

*Dear makers of my spellcheck, I can understand it if you underline "Schlafly", but "Phyllis"? That seems to be a somewhat common given name.

In this case, though, it is that there are Jews who are opposed to what the State of Israel has been doing in their name, and they are being accused of "anti-Semitism" for their opposition to Israeli policy and targeted in an awfully disproportionate fashion relative to the portion of the German population today which is Jewish.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 12:57 pm
In this case, though, it is that there are Jews who are opposed to what the State of Israel has been doing in their name, and they are being accused of "anti-Semitism" for their opposition to Israeli policy

Accusing someone of antisemitism, even in cases where it's a completely nonsensical charge, is still an exercise of freedom of speech, not a violation or limitation of it.

Again, feeling censored because people respond to something you said by saying unfriendly things about you is one of the more ridiculous and pathetic right-wing habits, and left-wingers should mock rather than imitate that habit.

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 1:04 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 12:57 pm
In this case, though, it is that there are Jews who are opposed to what the State of Israel has been doing in their name, and they are being accused of "anti-Semitism" for their opposition to Israeli policy

Accusing someone of antisemitism, even in cases where it's a completely nonsensical charge, is still an exercise of freedom of speech, not a violation or limitation of it.

Again, feeling censored because people respond to something you said by saying unfriendly things about you is one of the more ridiculous and pathetic right-wing habits, and left-wingers should mock rather than imitate that habit.

It's not being criticized which is being objected to here per se, but rather its being made a matter of state.

This is really pointless, but I kind of wanted to do it ever since the recent discussion of the word "child" over in the English Questions thread in Ephemera. As an introduction to one specific aspect of German public policy, here's my attempts at translating the first few sections of the Jugendschutzgesetz, which the English Wikipedia translates as the "Protection of Young Persons Act", although I myself would probably translate it as the "Youth Protection Act".

Original version:

https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/juschg/

I don't think I've ever tried to translate an actual legal document before.

I've translated Gaststätte as "inn". I'm not sure what the correct anglophone legal term would be. It means, basically, a restaurant, a bar, or anything fairly similar.

Part 1

General matters

Section 1 Definitions of Terms

(1) As understood by this act

1. Kinder ["children"] are persons who are not yet 14 years old,

2. Jugendliche ["youths"] are persons who are [at least] 14, but not yet 18 years old,

3. a personensorgeberechtigte Person is anyone who, alone or together with another person, is, under the rules of the Civil Law Code entitled to exercise taking care of a young person,

4. an erziehungsbeauftragte Person is any person aged 18 or older who, permanently or temporarily, under an agreement with the personensorgeberechtigte Person takes over educational or child-raising tasks or who takes cares of a child or a youth within a framework of education, training, or youth work.

(1a) Media as understood by this act are physical media and digital services as well as contents within a digital service in the sense of an evaluation unit.

(2) Physical media as understood by this act are media with texts, images, or sounds on physical containers, which are suitable for presentation, determined for immediate perception, or built into a presentation or gaming device. Electronic distribution, handover, offering or making available are equivalent to physical distribution, handover, offering or making available of physical media, unless the matter is radio as defined by Section 2 of the Radio State Treaty.

(3) Digital services as understood by this act are digital services according to Section 1 Subsection 4 Number 1 of the Digital Services Act.

(4) Mail order as understood by this act is any paid business which is executed by way of ordering and sending a product through postal delivery or electronic delivery without personal contact between the supplier and the customer or in such a way that there are no technological or other measures ensuring that there is no delivery to children or youths.

(5) The provisos of Sections 2 to 14 of this act shall not be applied to married youths.

(6) Service providers as understood by this act are service providers according to the Digital Services Act in the version in force at any given moment.

Section 2 Duty of Examination and Demonstration

(1) In so far as, according to this act, being accompanied by an erziehungsbeauftragte Person is required, the persons named in Section 1 Subsection 1 Number 4 have to document their authorisation when asked to. Organizers of events and businesspeople have, when in doubt, to examine the authorisation.

(2) Persons for whom, according to this act, age limits are to be observed, have to demonstrate their biological age in a suitable way when asked to. Organizers of events and businesspeople have, when in doubt, to examine biological age.

Section 3 Publication of Provisos

(1) Organizers of events and businesspeople have to publicize those provisos of Sections 4 to 13 which are applicable to their businesses and events and, in the case of public movie events, the age ratings of movies and the supplier labels according to Section 14 Subsection 7, by means of a clearly visible and well readable notice.

(2) For the purpose of publication of the age ratings of movies and game software, organizers of events and businesspeople may only use the labels named in Section 14 Subsection 2. Anyone who passes on a movie for public movie events, is obliged, to point out the age restriction or the supplier label according to Section 14 Subsection 7 to the organizer of the event during the handover. For movies and game software which, according to Section 14 Subsection 2, has been labelled by the supreme state authority or an organisation of voluntary self control within the framework of the processes according to Section 14 Subsection 6, during the announcement or advertising, jugendbeeinträchtigende ["youth affecting"] contents may neither be pointed out, nor may the announcement or advertising be done in a jugendbeeinträchtigende way.

Part 2

Protection of Youth in Public

Section 4 Inns

(1) Being present in inns may only be permitted to children and youths under the age of 16 if they are accompanied by a personensorgeberechtigte or an erziehungsbeauftragte Person or if they consume a meal or a beverage during the time between 5 am and 11 pm. During the time between midnight and 5 am, youths aged 16 or older may not be permitted to be present in inns unless accompanied by a personensorgeberechtigte or an erziehungsbeauftragte Person.

(2) Subsection 1 does not apply when children or youths take part in an event organized by a recognized organization of youth work or when they are travelling.

(3) Being present in inns that are maintained as a night bar or night club and in comparable places of amusement may not be permitted to children and youths.

(4) The responsible authority may grant exceptions to Subsection 1.

Section 5 Dance Events

(1) Being present at public dance events without being accompanied by a personensorgeberechtigte or an erziehungsbeauftragte Person may not be permitted to children and youths under the age of 16 and may only be permitted to youths aged 16 or older until midnight.

(2) Deviating from Subsection 1 being present [at a dance event] may be permitted to children until 10 pm and to youths under the age of 16 until midnight if the dance event is organized by a recognized organization of youth work or serves artistic activities or the preservation of cultural traditions.

(3) The responsible authority may grant exceptions.

Section 6 Casinos, Gambling

(1) Being present in public casinos or similar premises serving mainly the purpose of gambling may not be permitted to children or youths.

(2) Taking part in public games with the possibility of winning prices may only be permitted to children and youths at folk festivals [Volksfeste], shooting festivals [Schützenfeste], fairs [Jahrmärkte], special markets [Spezialmärkte] or similar events and only under the condition that the prices consist of products of low value.

Section 7 Youth Endangering Events and Businesses

If a public event or a business is a source of dangers for the physical, mental, or spiritual [körperliche, geistige oder seelische] well-being of children or youths, the responsible authority can order that the organizer or businessperson may not permit the presence of children and youths. The order can contain age limits, time limits or other conditions, if this removes the endangerment or significantly reduces it.

Section 8 Youth Endangering Locations

If a child or a youth is present in a place where he or she is threatened by an immediate danger to physical, mental, or spiritual wellbeing, the responsible authority or agency is obliged to take the measures necessary to deflect the danger. If necessary, it has to

1. demand that the child or youth leaves the location,

2. hand the child or youth over to the legal guardian according to Section 7 Subsection 1 Number 6 of Book Eight of the Social Law Code or, if no legal guardian can be reached, hand over the child or youth to the care of Child Protective Services.

In difficult cases the responsible authority or agency is obliged to inform Child Protective Services about the youth endangering location.

Section 9 Alcoholic Beverages

(1) In inns, places of sales, or elsewhere in public

1. beer, wine, beverages similar to wine or sparkling wine or blends of beer, wine, beverages similar to wine or sparkling wine with non-alcoholic beverages may not to provided to children or youths under the age of 16,

2. other alcoholic beverages or food products which contain other alcoholic beverages in more than negligible amounts may not to provided to children or youths

nor may they be permitted to consume them.

(2) Subsection 1 Number 1 does not apply when youths are accompanied by a personensorgeberechtigte Person.

(3) In public, alcoholic beverages may not be offered in vending machines. This does not apply if the vending machine

1. is positioned in a location inaccessible for children or youths or

2. is positioned in a commercially used premise and technological measures or permanent observation ensures that children and youths can not take out alcoholic beverages.

Section 20 Number 1 of the Inn Act is not affected.

(4) Alcoholic sweet beverages as defined by Section 1 Subsections 2 and 3 of the Alcopop Tax Act may, commercially, only be sold with the notice "Sale to persons under 18 years of age forbidden, Section 9 Youth Protection Act". This notice has to be present on the completed packaging in the same font and in the same size and color as the label or fantasy name or, if those do not exist, as the sales description and, in the case of bottles, has to be present on the frontal label.

Section 10 Smoking in Public, Tobacco Products

(1) In inns, places of sales, or elsewhere in public, tobacco products and other products containing nicotine and their containers may neither be provided to children or youths nor may they be permitted to smoke or consume products containing nicotine.

(2) In public, tobacco products and other products containing nicotine and their containers may not be offered in vending machines. This does not apply if the vending machine

1. is positioned in a location inaccessible for children or youths or

2. is positioned in a commercially used premise and technological measures or permanent observation ensures that children and youths can not take out tobacco products and other products containing nicotine and their containers.

(3) Tobacco products and other products containing nicotine and their containers may neither be offered to children and youths through mail order nor provided to children and youths by means of mail order.

(4) Subsections 1 to 3 apply as well to to products free of nicotine, such as electronic cigarettes or electronic shishas, in which liquid is vaporized by means of an electronic heating element and the resulting aerosols are inhaled through the mouth, and their containers.

Oh, I'm talking about myself again. I'll pick up on a brief discussion last week in the Elections in various countries thread:

doctor shark wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 8:19 pm As a result, it's likely Rob Jetten (D66 leader) will get the first attempt to form a government, and, if he's successful, he would become the Netherlands' youngest prime minister (as well as the first openly gay one).

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Nov 01, 2025 5:09 am Yes, a mid-sized country will probably soon have a head of government who is several years younger than me. *breaks down sobbing*

rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Nov 05, 2025 5:18 am
What's stopping you from entering politics? A quote from Reddit:

A 34 y/o with only 4 years as a councilman just won NYC just by basically stating obvious truths and sticking to his principles. Billions in donations didn't matter.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Nov 05, 2025 9:42 am I was more lamenting the fact that we all get older than my own lack of a political career. As for entering politics myself, there are various reasons why that probably wouldn't work, but it would take a while to write them all down.

If you know me, it's a bit weird: except for voting and discussing politics in real life and on the Internet, I've never really been politically active. And that's although I've been very much interested in politics for as long as I can remember, since an age at which all the other kids saw politics as one of those stupid boring things some adults cared about. Many people get politicized as teens or young adults. I'm pretty sure that I remember that I already had opinions on political current events when I was in my late single digits. Not exactly smart or sophisticated opinions, of course, but still, opinions.

Problem is, serious political activism in Germany usually involves becoming a seriously active card-carrying member of one of the existing parties. And first, I have some problems with each of them individually, and second, I have some general problems with the way being an active member of an existing party in Germany usually seems to work.

As far as specific parties are concerned, of course I would never have wanted to join one of the parties of what in Germany is usually called das bürgerliche Lager¹, that is, the center-right camp. And of course I wouldn't have wanted to have anything to do with the parties even more to the right than that. For reasons, see much of the stuff I've written about politics here and elsewhere.

Then there are the parties that are more or less left of center or left-leaning center, there are three of them which, for now, matter: the SPD (Social Democrats), the Greens, and the party that changed its name several times during my lifetime and is now called The Left (Die Linke). Out of these, only the Left has sometimes, partly, on a good day, policies on economic and socioeconomic issues that are far enough to the Left for my taste. And that party has all kinds of downsides which, IMO, more than outweigh their good sides. For instance, until fairly recently, they were full of Stalinists, and I have my doubts that they have really gotten rid of them all. And their views on international politics are partly delusional, partly repulsive, and partly both.

As for the SPD and the Greens, I am willing to accept the things I don't like about them when it comes to voting, but not when it comes to joining up. As I already hinted at, their economic and socioeconomic policies are generally not nearly left-wing enough for my taste, and while their views on international politics aren't quite as delusional or repulsive as those of the Left, they don't really make that much sense, either.

And with all parties more or less to the Left of the conservatives, I don't like their stance on domestic security, either. I really resent the fact that in every election, when I vote for a party whose policies on economic and cultural issues I like or at least kind of can live with, I also have to at least indirectly vote for the whole "We should all be nicer to the poor oppressed murderers and rapists of the world"-project. But I don't expect a party that's generally left-wing while sharing my views on that issue to appear any time soon, and I try to make my peace with that.

Going back to the SPD and the Greens, a problem specific to the SPD - which, as of now, is the party I usually vote for - is that they're basically a dying party. Another problem I would have with joining them from my personal perspective - that is, aside from the fact that I disagree with many of their policies and that they don't seem to have much of a future - is that in thrir local chapter in the place where I live, my Mom is a bit of a big deal. I wouldn't want to join and then be seen as simply her son. I know that there are many political families, and not just among professional politicians, but at the grassroots level, too, but I don't think that would work for me.

As for the Greens, as I posted before, only half-jokingly, I enjoy unhealthy food too much to join them.

Independently of any specific party, I'm deeply sceptical of how the whole way of being involved in parties generally works in Germany. You join a party, and then you're basically expected to turn off your higher brain functions. Each party, internally, seems to have a kind of "basic training" for new members, and the members who eventually become candidates for serious offices are carefully trained and selected to be people who reliably do what the party wants them to do, reliably say what the party wants them to say, and reliably think what the party wants them to think. I wouldn't want to end up like that.

To a large extent, the main existing parties in Germany could be replaced with flocks of well-trained parrots² and few people would notice much of a difference. That goes especially for the FDP (More market! Less state! Polly wants a cracker!), but to a lesser extent it applies to the other parties as well. That might be part of what makes politics here so boring, because you always hear the same old stale phrases over and over again.

All this might be less of a problem in some other countries. For instance, in the USA, one of the two main parties, the Democrats, seems to be to a large extent a collection of one person parties which pretend to be one party so that they can pool office resources, and with a bit of luck, you can have a serious career even if you're politically a good deal to the Left or a good deal to the Right of the average politician in the party. But in Germany, it's a pretty serious problem, IMO.

Finally, there's the story of my life. To repeat the quote from a post by rotting bones above,

rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Nov 05, 2025 5:18 am
What's stopping you from entering politics? A quote from Reddit:

A 34 y/o with only 4 years as a councilman just won NYC just by basically stating obvious truths and sticking to his principles. Billions in donations didn't matter.

Well, I'm not 34, but in my mid-forties. That's generally a bit old to enter a new field. And my adult life has been mostly a disaster. If I would have spend the last 20 years doing something like, say, studying medicine and then becoming a well-respected and much-beloved doctor in some local community somewhere, I might, now, be well-positioned to become a late entry to the great contest of politics. But instead, I have absolutely no (0) achievements to my name. A fortysomething with no professional references whatsoever would be unlikely to make a good impression on all that many voters.

¹Strictly speaking, the translation of "das bürgerliche Lager" would be "the bourgeois camp", but that sounds a lot like hard Left terminology, which would make it a poor translation, IMO. In Germany, it's fairly common for people to proudly call themselves "bürgerlich", in both political and not directly political contexts.

²Yes, pedants, I know that you generally can't train parrots in a flock to talk.