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It's not impossible, but /k͡p/ seems out of place in Eurasia; it is pretty much an African thing. In my personal opinion, PIE *kʷ etc. are from plain velars next to rounded vowels before the vowel system of Pre-PIE collapsed, perhaps due to a Para-NW-Caucasian substratum (the same kind of change seems to have happened in NW Caucasian, too).
That hypothesis implies that PIE *kʷ etc. should pattern with PIE *u~*w -- do we have any positive evidence for this?WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2026 1:55 amIt's not impossible, but /k͡p/ seems out of place in Eurasia; it is pretty much an African thing. In my personal opinion, PIE *kʷ etc. are from plain velars next to rounded vowels before the vowel system of Pre-PIE collapsed, perhaps due to a Para-NW-Caucasian substratum (the same kind of change seems to have happened in NW Caucasian, too).
The idea is that most (if not all) vowels collapsed into a single vowel phoneme which then developed the various ablaut grades, and the old vowel features [+front] and [+round] were transferred to adjacent velars, if any.Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2026 11:12 amThat hypothesis implies that PIE *kʷ etc. should pattern with PIE *u~*w -- do we have any positive evidence for this?WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2026 1:55 amIt's not impossible, but /k͡p/ seems out of place in Eurasia; it is pretty much an African thing. In my personal opinion, PIE *kʷ etc. are from plain velars next to rounded vowels before the vowel system of Pre-PIE collapsed, perhaps due to a Para-NW-Caucasian substratum (the same kind of change seems to have happened in NW Caucasian, too).
You would expect PIE *w to also condition labialization if that were true (it would be odd if a *u conditioned labialization but *w did not).WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2026 1:17 pmThe idea is that most (if not all) vowels collapsed into a single vowel phoneme which then developed the various ablaut grades, and the old vowel features [+front] and [+round] were transferred to adjacent velars, if any.Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2026 11:12 amThat hypothesis implies that PIE *kʷ etc. should pattern with PIE *u~*w -- do we have any positive evidence for this?WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2026 1:55 am
It's not impossible, but /k͡p/ seems out of place in Eurasia; it is pretty much an African thing. In my personal opinion, PIE *kʷ etc. are from plain velars next to rounded vowels before the vowel system of Pre-PIE collapsed, perhaps due to a Para-NW-Caucasian substratum (the same kind of change seems to have happened in NW Caucasian, too).
Actually my main objection to this scenario is that fricatives at the beginnings of clusters tend to prevent frication (but not necessary affrication) of a following stop, as shown by how fricative + voiceless plosive clusters in PIE survived both the Germanic consonant shift and the High German consonant shift./ˌnɐ.ˈɾɛn.dɚ.ˌduːd/ wrote: ↑Mon Jun 08, 2026 7:52 pmI'd say it's unlikely, but still certainly possible, especially if your language already tolerates mixing voiced and voiceless consonants in clusters.
Albanian had medial /sp sd sk/ > /f θ h/ (/st/ became /ʃt/) so it's not out of the question for the sound change to happen with voiceless consonants. Brythonic, which I'm heavily cribbing from, also had word-final /s/ debuccalise, then geminate a following word-initial stop, with geminates then becoming fricatives.Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Jun 08, 2026 8:11 pmActually my main objection to this scenario is that fricatives at the beginnings of clusters tend to prevent frication (but not necessary affrication) of a following stop, as shown by how fricative + voiceless plosive clusters in PIE survived both the Germanic consonant shift and the High German consonant shift./ˌnɐ.ˈɾɛn.dɚ.ˌduːd/ wrote: ↑Mon Jun 08, 2026 7:52 pmI'd say it's unlikely, but still certainly possible, especially if your language already tolerates mixing voiced and voiceless consonants in clusters.
The /s/ would be ultimately deleted, but whether it voices mid-way through the process is dependent on how plausible it makes my desired end result.
I don't see anything really implausible about these sound changes myself. Both the first set of changes, and the second set of changes, are perfectly plausible by themselves, and I don't see any reason against the two sets of changes happening one after another.Qwynegold wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2026 12:12 pm How plausible are these sound changes?
mh, nh, ŋh → m̥, n̥, ŋ̊ → p, t, k
The idea is that /h/ devoices preceding consonants, even in a preceding word. /h/ is then elided, but <h> is kept in writing. This would create consonant mutation at the end of words, when the next word is one that used to begin with /h/. If the above sound changes are plausible, then is this consonant mutation idea plausible? If it's implausible for all h- words to cause the mutation, then what about just a few really common words causing it?
Vietnamese has them, as do quite a few languages in Melanesia, particularly in Vanuatu.WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2026 1:55 amIt's not impossible, but /k͡p/ seems out of place in Eurasia; it is pretty much an African thing.
I wouldn't exactly call Melanesia "Eurasia" myself.Imralu wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2026 4:37 pmVietnamese has them, as do quite a few languages in Melanesia, particularly in Vanuatu.WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2026 1:55 amIt's not impossible, but /k͡p/ seems out of place in Eurasia; it is pretty much an African thing.
How strong is this tendency outside Germanic presigmatized stops?Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Jun 08, 2026 8:11 pmActually my main objection to this scenario is that fricatives at the beginnings of clusters tend to prevent frication (but not necessary affrication) of a following stop, as shown by how fricative + voiceless plosive clusters in PIE survived both the Germanic consonant shift and the High German consonant shift./ˌnɐ.ˈɾɛn.dɚ.ˌduːd/ wrote: ↑Mon Jun 08, 2026 7:52 pmI'd say it's unlikely, but still certainly possible, especially if your language already tolerates mixing voiced and voiceless consonants in clusters.
This wasn't limited to presigmatized stops -- /ft/ (or shall I say /ɸt/?) and /xt/ clusters were also left intact by the High German consonant shift when otherwise /t/ affricated.Nortaneous wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2026 7:20 pmHow strong is this tendency outside Germanic presigmatized stops?Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Jun 08, 2026 8:11 pmActually my main objection to this scenario is that fricatives at the beginnings of clusters tend to prevent frication (but not necessary affrication) of a following stop, as shown by how fricative + voiceless plosive clusters in PIE survived both the Germanic consonant shift and the High German consonant shift./ˌnɐ.ˈɾɛn.dɚ.ˌduːd/ wrote: ↑Mon Jun 08, 2026 7:52 pm
I'd say it's unlikely, but still certainly possible, especially if your language already tolerates mixing voiced and voiceless consonants in clusters.
I wouldn't call it "Africa".Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2026 5:16 pmI wouldn't exactly call Melanesia "Eurasia" myself.Imralu wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2026 4:37 pmVietnamese has them, as do quite a few languages in Melanesia, particularly in Vanuatu.WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2026 1:55 am
It's not impossible, but /k͡p/ seems out of place in Eurasia; it is pretty much an African thing.
Thanks! I was worried about the second step, because voiceless nasals don't sound similar to plosives to me. But it should be okay, since nasals and plosives are both stop consonants.Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2026 1:16 pm I don't see anything really implausible about these sound changes myself. Both the first set of changes, and the second set of changes, are perfectly plausible by themselves, and I don't see any reason against the two sets of changes happening one after another.
Remember that in many languages voiced nasals and voiced plosives are closely related. If you want to more strongly justify the changes you detailed, I would do something like have an intermediate state of m̥, n̥, ŋ̊ > m̥p, n̥t, ŋ̊k and potentially transfer the nasalization to the preceding vowel (my native dialect of English has a productive sound change where coda mp, nt, ŋk > ʔp, ʔ(t), ʔk (and also when followed by a sibilant in the same coda) with nasalization of the preceding vowel, but the nasal consonant is preserved if there is a syllable boundary between it and the plosive).Qwynegold wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2026 12:55 pmThanks! I was worried about the second step, because voiceless nasals don't sound similar to plosives to me. But it should be okay, since nasals and plosives are both stop consonants.Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2026 1:16 pm I don't see anything really implausible about these sound changes myself. Both the first set of changes, and the second set of changes, are perfectly plausible by themselves, and I don't see any reason against the two sets of changes happening one after another.
I could see **hp **ht **hk (> **pp **tt **kk) > *ʔp *ʔt *ʔk > p’ t’ k’. Directly from preaspiration to ejective would seem to be a stretch but if there’s a sequence in the sound changes it cound get there with a pit stop or two along the way.