Page 8 of 90
Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread
Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:47 pm
by Nortaneous
Space60 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:33 am
How do you pronounce "perfume" the noun and the verb? Are they distinct? I've heard both PER-fume and per-FUME for the noun.
Final stress, not distinct.
Space60 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:27 pm
How do you pronounce "nightingale"? For me it phonemically has /n/ because I use a glottal stop rather than a flap for the "t" [naI?INge@5]. If I had /N/ phonemically it would be *[naI4iNge@5].
/najtɨngejəl/ [nʌɪ̯ɾɪŋgeɪ̯əɫ]
Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread
Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:56 pm
by anteallach
Space60 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:27 pm
How do you pronounce "nightingale"? For me it phonemically has /n/ because I use a glottal stop rather than a flap for the "t" [naI?INge@5]. If I had /N/ phonemically it would be *[naI4iNge@5].
I have [ŋ] (and I would analyse /ŋ/ too) there. Flapping IMD is lexically restricted so wouldn't be expected in that word anyway.
Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:34 pm
by Space60
How do you pronounce "lawn mower"? For me it has three syllables, but I've heard people use two "lawn more".
Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:19 pm
by bbbosborne
[läːn moʊ̯ːɚ̯]
Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:34 pm
by Estav
Space60 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:34 pm
How do you pronounce "lawn mower"? For me it has three syllables, but I've heard people use two "lawn more".
I think of it as having three syllables, but it wouldn't be too surprising to me if I learned that I used a "compressed" two-syllable pronunciation as a "fast speech" variant. Phonemically, I think of it as /ˈlɑnˌmo.ər/, which is phonetically something like [lɑ̃nmoʊɚ] or [lɑ̃mmoʊɚ]; "more" ends in /or/ [oɚ̯]. So the main distinguishing factor for me would be the presence of a glide in the trisyllabic pronunciation. I can't hear a difference between [ɚ] and [ɚ̯] after a high offglide (so I don't perceive any consistent difference in syllabification between
fire/higher, power/hour etc.), but /o/ and /e/ usually aren't realized with a high offglide before /r/ in my speech, unless there is an intervening morpheme boundary.
Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:53 am
by Nortaneous
/lonmʌwər/
/r/ can't follow a semivowel in a coda (and /l/ can't follow /j/):
'hire' /hajər/
'higher' /hajər/
'hour' /æwər/
'power' /pæwər/
'file' /fajəl/
'denial' /dɨnajəl/
But the contrast is maintained elsewhere, so /or/ contrasts with /ʌwər/ (and would contrast with /o.ər/, although I think this would only arise morphologically), /er/ contrasts with /ejər/, and so on.
An exception:
'howl' /hæwl/
'owl' /æw(ə)l/
'towel' /tæwəl/
Probably because /æwəl/ can flatten to [æə̯l]; cf. 'fire' [faˑɹ] (contrasting with 'far' [fɔɹ]), 'power' [pæˑɹ]. (Linguistically-inclined friend from NJ insists that I pronounce 'howl' and 'Hal' identically -- I don't think I do, but it's something like [hæɐ̯ɫ] vs. [hæʌ̯ɫ], so the difference is probably hard to perceive, if it exists at all.)
Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:29 am
by Linguoboy
Calvados
Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:46 pm
by anteallach
Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:29 amCalvados
/ˈkalvədɒs/
Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:08 pm
by bbbosborne
bulletin
hall
[kalˈvaːˌðos] (it looked spanish to me)
[ˈbʊlɨtʰɨn]
[hɑ̴ːɫ]
Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:06 pm
by Zaarin
bulletin [ˈbɫ̩ɫəɾɪn]
hall [hɒɫ]
Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:36 am
by Tropylium
My L2 English these days seems to have a "nonstandard LOT-CLOTH" split – with the LOT set having /ɑ/, but the CLOTH set having /ɔ/. This is distinct from /ɔː/ in THOUGHT or NORTH. (This is regardless phonemic, at minimum since my STRUT also ends up as /ɑ/, which is phonetically a somewhat lax [ɑ̽] or [ɐ̠].)
/ɔ/ seems to appear not just before fricatives (lost /lɔst/, soft /sɔft/ — though cloth itself ends up as /klɑθ/) but also before velars (dog /dɔg/, hockey /hɔki/, long /lɔŋ/), /m/ (bomb /bɔm/, comma /kɔmə/, from /frɔm/) and intervocalic /r/ (orange /ɔrɪndʒ/, sorry /sɔri/), and after /w/ (what /wɔt/, wash /wɔʃ/, won /wɔn/; these actually have a fairly closed [o]). On the other hand, body /bɑdi/, money /mɑni/, etc. (Maybe /ɔ/ should be considered default and /ɑ/ conditional instead, really.)
…So where have I picked this up from, if anywhere? I don't think I've heard of an English dialect that would quite do this exact distribution, but there's a lot of them about.
Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:47 am
by Ares Land
Tropylium wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:36 am
My L2 English these days seems to have a "nonstandard LOT-CLOTH" split – with the LOT set having /ɑ/, but the CLOTH set having /ɔ/. This is distinct from /ɔː/ in THOUGHT or NORTH. (This is regardless phonemic, at minimum since my STRUT also ends up as /ɑ/, which is phonetically a somewhat lax [ɑ̽] or [ɐ̠].)
/ɔ/ seems to appear not just before fricatives (
lost /lɔst/,
soft /sɔft/ — though
cloth itself ends up as /klɑθ/) but also before velars (
dog /dɔg/,
hockey /hɔki/,
long /lɔŋ/), /m/ (
bomb /bɔm/,
comma /kɔmə/,
from /frɔm/) and intervocalic /r/ (
orange /ɔrɪndʒ/,
sorry /sɔri/), and after /w/ (
what /wɔt/,
wash /wɔʃ/,
won /wɔn/; these actually have a fairly closed [o]). On the other hand,
body /bɑdi/,
money /mɑni/, etc. (Maybe /ɔ/ should be considered default and /ɑ/ conditional instead, really.)
…So where have I picked this up from, if anywhere? I don't think I've heard of an English dialect that would quite do this exact distribution, but there's a lot of them about.
I think it's fairly common to have that kind of nonstandard distribution for L2 speakers. I learned RP (well, theoretically), except that I was exposed a lot more to American English, and then I watched a lot British television at some point; well, you get the idea.
The last time I had an English language teacher, he insisted on us picking up either American English or British and I've tried to stick to General American ever since, but RP still crops up sometimes, unless it's a word I learned watching
Life on Mars or something.
(Though all of this is a little theoretical. I don't speak English nearly often enough so getting the vowels right requires conscious effort... So on the infrequent occasion I have a conversation with native speakers I usually sacrifice convenience to esthetics and go full Gérard Depardieu.)
Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:07 pm
by Pabappa
I only hear "money" with the vowel of "bunny" ... never heard it with /O/ or /A/.
Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:59 pm
by Travis B.
bulletin: [ˈpʊːɰɘˌtʰɘ̃(ː)(n)]~[ˈpʊːwɘˌtʰɘ̃(ː)(n)]
hall: [hɒ(ː)o̯]
Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:45 pm
by Tropylium
Pabappa wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:07 pm
I only hear "money" with the vowel of "bunny" ... never heard it with /O/ or /A/.
Oh, it's one of those. Someday I would like to see a reasonably good list of them really… (You know, with
o for /ᴧ/ due to medieval spelling problems:
above dove glove love,
done none son,
monk monkey, etc.)
Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread
Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:16 pm
by Vlürch
lawnmower [lɔːmmoʊ̯ʔ̞ʷə], I think.
Calvados [kʰælʋɐdəs~kʰælʋədɔs] - never heard of it, but either one seems instinctional in English
bulletin [bʊlət̪ɪn~bʊlətʰɪn] or something; my /t/ varies and merges with /θ/ randomly
hall [hɔːl̪], or [χ̞o̞ːl̪] if I was startled or distracted by something
money [mɐ̠nɪ], I guess
Does anyone else pronounce isle as /aɪ̯əl/?
For me it's like [ɐɪ̯ʔ̞ʲəl̪] or whatever, but phonemically it's definitely /aɪ̯əl/. I can't pronounce it as one syllable, /aɪ̯l/, like it's supposed to be pronounced... and yeah, I know, using [ʔ̞ʷ] and [ʔ̞ʲ] is unnecessarily narrow and probably incorrect, but I have no idea what really goes on in my mouth when I say words like these.
Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread
Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:06 pm
by Linguoboy
Vlürch wrote: ↑Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:16 pmDoes anyone else pronounce
isle as /aɪ̯əl/?
In careful speech, probably. Conversationally I have tend to have some smoothing of the /ay/ diphthong before liquids (though it rarely becomes completely monophthongal).
Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread
Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:17 pm
by Nortaneous
bulletin /bulɨtin/ [bɫ̩ɨtʰɪn]
hall /hol/
isle /ajəl/ (vile-vial merged)
Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread
Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:33 pm
by zyxw59
I have "isle" /aɪ̯əl/ but "I'll" /æl/~/al/~/əl/
Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread
Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:40 pm
by anteallach
Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:06 pm
Vlürch wrote: ↑Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:16 pmDoes anyone else pronounce
isle as /aɪ̯əl/?
In careful speech, probably. Conversationally I have tend to have some smoothing of the /ay/ diphthong before liquids (though it rarely becomes completely monophthongal).
I'd transcribe it as /aɪl/ phonemically, but there's a hint of a glide into the following dark /l/. I have at least a potential distinction between /aɪl/ and /aɪəl/ --
vile vs.
vial -- though how reliably I actually make it I don't know.