Tinasan, Ineshîmé, and other fantasy-Japonic curiosities
- Rounin Ryuuji
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic
I have also produced a thing about verbs that goes into more depth. I'm not sure if making PDFs or typing out changes and things more directly is the better approach, however I'm finding things easier to structure in documents like this, however, and the fonts to which I have access can make all those Han characters look nicer.
Also collecting all the more polished documents in the original posting, too, and making many edits all round.
Also collecting all the more polished documents in the original posting, too, and making many edits all round.
Last edited by Rounin Ryuuji on Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic
I am not sure that link works ![Sad :(](./images/smilies/icon_e_sad.gif)
![Sad :(](./images/smilies/icon_e_sad.gif)
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic
Fixed link, with immediate download (dl=1):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2radbc3k9hbkc ... e.pdf?dl=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2radbc3k9hbkc ... e.pdf?dl=1
- Rounin Ryuuji
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic
Very good of you to fix it.
- Rounin Ryuuji
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic
Over the course of the "Ifsumé" period, the language would not, of course, remain static. We start with the following inventory:
Our usual syllable structure will be (C)(y/w)V(N), in which (C) can be any consonant other than /j w/, (y) and (w) represent the two glides (however sequences of glide + /r l/ do not occur, and glide + [s̪ z̪] is rare. (N) is the final [ɴ], indicating that the preceding vowel is nasalised (perhaps protracted) and that an ambiguous nasal consonant may be present in the coda.
Now going from Ancient to Classical Ifsumé, we have —
This written variety, which is of course rather artificial, would be what was most widely-attested. Its inventory is not *very* different from the preceding stage, but it might bear remarking:
It is at this stage that we begin to get to Late Eastern Ifsumé, the variety which will become the desired daughter language. Its changes are detailed below:
Several reanalyses of the verbal paradigms happen during this period (already touched on elsewhere), which will continue into the next period, affecting some parts of the paradigm dramatically (and others only slightly); other particles are also beginning to coalesce into the nominals preceding them (to be detailed elsewhere), likely leading to the development of fully inflected nouns at a later stage; changes in vocabulary will also necessarily occur, with many of the lemmas in the first document undergoing semantic drift or becoming obsolete.
An innovative definite article -"fa" (枼) or -"ifa/-(y)fa" (葉), akin to Japanese "wa", "iwa", begins to become more prominent during the period, with the first one being now largely absorbed (the same thing is thought to have happened in Japanese, with a following nominaliser -i); the -"fa" form had existed already, but was perceived as very emphatic, and consequently not used nearly as often as -"i".
More: show
Now going from Ancient to Classical Ifsumé, we have —
More: show
More: show
More: show
An innovative definite article -"fa" (枼) or -"ifa/-(y)fa" (葉), akin to Japanese "wa", "iwa", begins to become more prominent during the period, with the first one being now largely absorbed (the same thing is thought to have happened in Japanese, with a following nominaliser -i); the -"fa" form had existed already, but was perceived as very emphatic, and consequently not used nearly as often as -"i".
Re: A little dabbling in Japonic
Ah, intriguing.Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sat Dec 26, 2020 4:03 pmThat certainly influenced it, but there are elements of the fiction in play that I don't feel ready to reveal.
![Exclamation :!:](./images/smilies/icon_exclaim.gif)
- Rounin Ryuuji
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic
Happy to have intrigued. I'm sure little bits and pieces will slip out as the language grows, though it isn't really meant for a puzzle. For the next wordlist, I'm planning to include more culturally-salient words, as opposed to half the Swadesh list (or 48% of it, two of the first fifty entries were culturally irrelevant enough for the language not to have words for them).Qwynegold wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:37 pmAh, intriguing.Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sat Dec 26, 2020 4:03 pmThat certainly influenced it, but there are elements of the fiction in play that I don't feel ready to reveal.![]()
Re: A little dabbling in Japonic
Have you considered doing a backformation of arisyan and having *ari mean maybe lynx?Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:24 amalso "arisyan" - "lion" (a Turkic loanword; the -syan even gets abstracted off the word, and attached to other animal names to create something meaning roughly "huge fantastical creature resembling [whatever]" so you end up with "Torasyan" (a given name) and "inusyan" (a kind of large dog-like creature; stone lion, lion-dog, but literally "dogbeast"), &c.).
/j/ <j>
Ɂaləɂahina asəkipaɂə ileku omkiroro salka.
Loɂ ɂerleku asəɂulŋusikraɂə seləɂahina əɂətlahɂun əiŋɂiɂŋa.
Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ.
Ɂaləɂahina asəkipaɂə ileku omkiroro salka.
Loɂ ɂerleku asəɂulŋusikraɂə seləɂahina əɂətlahɂun əiŋɂiɂŋa.
Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ.
- Rounin Ryuuji
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic
I currently had thought of it as another word meaning "lion", for which there are several; the Turkic word actually gets borrowed twice, so there's a more "careful", literary form "arisŏlan" or "arisĕlan" coexisting with "arisyan" (the reflex in the desired daughter language is "arishen"; "Arishen" is also not uncommon as a given name); it meaning something like "lesser lion, lynx" eventually is a definite possibility, however (the idea of having "lion" be reanalysed as "lynxbeast" is increasingly appealing). In a story I'm writing, the main character has a cat named Arislan (the reflex of the more careful word, which is also used as a given name, and not a one-off for the cat) and often calls him Ari (which now can be a retroactive stealth reference to the Chrono Cross character).Zju wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:59 pmHave you considered doing a backformation of arisyan and having *ari mean maybe lynx?Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:24 amalso "arisyan" - "lion" (a Turkic loanword; the -syan even gets abstracted off the word, and attached to other animal names to create something meaning roughly "huge fantastical creature resembling [whatever]" so you end up with "Torasyan" (a given name) and "inusyan" (a kind of large dog-like creature; stone lion, lion-dog, but literally "dogbeast"), &c.).
- Rounin Ryuuji
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic
Also, I've produced a table of particle coalescences; the definite nominative, and both the definite and indefinite accusative, show absorption of the final -i and -wo, and sometimes the two together. Monosyllables behave a little differently (this is noted in the table provided), and long vowels begin to appear for the first time through these (you also see some irregular forms beginning to crop up). Sound change can be a wonderful and surprising things.
Re: A little dabbling in Japonic
A question - why is the more careful reflex of Turkic Arıslan tetrasyllabic?Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:15 pmI currently had thought of it as another word meaning "lion", for which there are several; the Turkic word actually gets borrowed twice, so there's a more "careful", literary form "arisŏlan" or "arisĕlan" coexisting with "arisyan" (the reflex in the desired daughter language is "arishen"; "Arishen" is also not uncommon as a given name); it meaning something like "lesser lion, lynx" eventually is a definite possibility, however (the idea of having "lion" be reanalysed as "lynxbeast" is increasingly appealing). In a story I'm writing, the main character has a cat named Arislan (the reflex of the more careful word, which is also used as a given name, and not a one-off for the cat) and often calls him Ari (which now can be a retroactive stealth reference to the Chrono Cross character).Zju wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:59 pmHave you considered doing a backformation of arisyan and having *ari mean maybe lynx?Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:24 amalso "arisyan" - "lion" (a Turkic loanword; the -syan even gets abstracted off the word, and attached to other animal names to create something meaning roughly "huge fantastical creature resembling [whatever]" so you end up with "Torasyan" (a given name) and "inusyan" (a kind of large dog-like creature; stone lion, lion-dog, but literally "dogbeast"), &c.).
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka ha wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate ha eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate ha eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
- Rounin Ryuuji
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic
Epenthesis; the -sl- cluster is phonologially invalid (as is coda anything that isn't /N j w/, so frequently, it becomes /sj/, but a more "careful" pronunciation instead inserts a vowel, usually /ɤ/ (Romanised ŏ), but sometimes /ɘ/ (Romanised ĕ) — the second one tends to show up more as the epenthetic vowel to break up clusters if there are more high vowels in the word; ĕ also later replaces ŏ in a later verbal morphological realignment; verbal nouns frequently ending in -ĕ, -ŏ at the end of anything that looks like a verbal noun also tends to get analogically replaced (hence the variability, "arisŏ-" looks a lot like it could be a verb, even though it isn't, and "arisĕ" would be its nominal form; I could see a verb being formed from this element meaning "to roar, to boast, to act like a lion, to be overbearing").Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:41 pmA question - why is the more careful reflex of Turkic Arıslan tetrasyllabic?Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:15 pmI currently had thought of it as another word meaning "lion", for which there are several; the Turkic word actually gets borrowed twice, so there's a more "careful", literary form "arisŏlan" or "arisĕlan" coexisting with "arisyan" (the reflex in the desired daughter language is "arishen"; "Arishen" is also not uncommon as a given name); it meaning something like "lesser lion, lynx" eventually is a definite possibility, however (the idea of having "lion" be reanalysed as "lynxbeast" is increasingly appealing). In a story I'm writing, the main character has a cat named Arislan (the reflex of the more careful word, which is also used as a given name, and not a one-off for the cat) and often calls him Ari (which now can be a retroactive stealth reference to the Chrono Cross character).
Re: A little dabbling in Japonic
I was just wondering because the name Ifsumé seems to include a coda fricative.Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:07 pm Epenthesis; the -sl- cluster is phonologially invalid (as is coda anything that isn't /N j w/, so frequently, it becomes /sj/, but a more "careful" pronunciation instead inserts a vowel, usually /ɤ/ (Romanised ŏ), but sometimes /ɘ/ (Romanised ĕ) — the second one tends to show up more as the epenthetic vowel to break up clusters if there are more high vowels in the word; ĕ also later replaces ŏ in a later verbal morphological realignment; verbal nouns frequently ending in -ĕ, -ŏ at the end of anything that looks like a verbal noun also tends to get analogically replaced (hence the variability, "arisŏ-" looks a lot like it could be a verb, even though it isn't, and "arisĕ" would be its nominal form; I could see a verb being formed from this element meaning "to roar, to boast, to act like a lion, to be overbearing").
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka ha wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate ha eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate ha eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
- Rounin Ryuuji
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic
Ah, that's the name used in one of the daughter languages, and in English; the language doesn't have an internal name for most of this stage, though the word Ifsumé descends from what was Ipisunme during this period.Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:08 amI was just wondering because the name Ifsumé seems to include a coda fricative.Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:07 pm Epenthesis; the -sl- cluster is phonologially invalid (as is coda anything that isn't /N j w/, so frequently, it becomes /sj/, but a more "careful" pronunciation instead inserts a vowel, usually /ɤ/ (Romanised ŏ), but sometimes /ɘ/ (Romanised ĕ) — the second one tends to show up more as the epenthetic vowel to break up clusters if there are more high vowels in the word; ĕ also later replaces ŏ in a later verbal morphological realignment; verbal nouns frequently ending in -ĕ, -ŏ at the end of anything that looks like a verbal noun also tends to get analogically replaced (hence the variability, "arisŏ-" looks a lot like it could be a verb, even though it isn't, and "arisĕ" would be its nominal form; I could see a verb being formed from this element meaning "to roar, to boast, to act like a lion, to be overbearing").
Edit: Should probably add that the daughter language name is internally actually 陽之葵 (Ifsúme, which can be variously pronounced as it looks [iɸ.s̪ʉ́ᵝ.mè̞], but more usually, the, -f- is actually syllabic, and somewhat protracted, sounding a bit more like [i.ɸ͜ɸ̀.s̪ʉ́ᵝ.mè̞], or has a very short, reduced, and devoiced vowel allophonically attached [[i.ɸ͜ə̥̀.s̪ʉ́ᵝ.mè̞]), the same is true of modern "Arislan" (獅蘭 [ɐ̞.ɾ̪ʲís̪.l̪ɐ̞́ɴ]~[ɐ̞.ɾ̪ʲís̪͜s̪̀.l̪ɐ̞́ɴ]~[ɐ̞.ɾ̪ʲís̪͜ə̥̀.l̪ɐ̞́ɴ]). I did not put a vowel there because it can be pronounced as a coda fricative, and elsewhere, a somewhat more audible weak vowel [ɘ̥~ɛ̥~ɪ̥], as in "Ineshîmé" (the name of this daughter language — internally 咲的芲 Inĕshîmé, [i.n̪ɘ̥.ɕí͜ì.mé̞] — usually written in English texts without the breve on the ĕ so it does not look too confusing or uninviting to an average reader).
- Rounin Ryuuji
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic
Having spent some time trying to create texts in Ancient Ifsumé, and not having as much fun with it as I might like (it isn't very interestingly different from Old Japanese), so perhaps I might do better to move on to the descendant language at which I wanted to arrive. As I've already mentioned, I wanted something aesthetically similar to Japanese, but distinct enough that at least anybody familiar with Japanese would find it immediately different after a small measure of exposure. Other desired traits included voiced initial consonants, a phoneme /l/, &c. &c.; of course, there are more inspirations for it that merely early modern and modern Japanese, among them (in order of least to most influence):
Warning: Long ramble about what inspired me to make the language, in fantasy, and in real languages both Japonic and non-Japonic (I do take quite a number of cues from Indo-European in some areas, perhaps because it has a strong influence on how I conceive of language working (most languages in which I have any competence are in the family, with Japanese, my weakest, being the only exception). This may bore you, so if you find the language and adjacent things themselves the good part, you may wish to skip this section and return to it later (or else see if you can puzzle out some of the inspirations and come back to check your work, if the mood strikes you.
And yes, I am a total dork, and very much enjoy wallowing in it.
So, where does all this leave us? Let's begin with what this desired language sounds like:
Inventory & Romanisation
Allophony
Phonotactics
A Few Items of Vocabulary, to Serve as Examples
I'm enjoying the phonoaesthetic result so far. This may give away a little about the fiction for which I'm creating this, but I suppose that's all right. I'm not entirely sold on importing Hiragana for this, though I imagine a similar system would've developed, and they're good enough as a stand-in; I thought of using Hentaigana, but I suppose I must make do with what I have encoded, and those tend not to display very well. The definite forms tend to feel very Japanese, I think, while the Indefinite forms seem a bit more... Persian...? French? some sort of oddly soft Germanic? Many of the changes on that front were inspired by the odd consonantalisation of certain vowels in Miyako. I expect this is going to need quite a lot more work, but I have write-ups on the declension paradigms (there is some very extensive nominal morphology that's developed from particle absorption) and conjugation tables (adjectives are still verb-like, and they seem to quite enjoy cheating off the verbs for new inflections, ehehehehe).
Warning: Long ramble about what inspired me to make the language, in fantasy, and in real languages both Japonic and non-Japonic (I do take quite a number of cues from Indo-European in some areas, perhaps because it has a strong influence on how I conceive of language working (most languages in which I have any competence are in the family, with Japanese, my weakest, being the only exception). This may bore you, so if you find the language and adjacent things themselves the good part, you may wish to skip this section and return to it later (or else see if you can puzzle out some of the inspirations and come back to check your work, if the mood strikes you.
And yes, I am a total dork, and very much enjoy wallowing in it.
More: show
Inventory & Romanisation
More: show
More: show
More: show
More: show
Re: A little dabbling in Japonic
I agree. It's Japanese-ish, but especially with the indefinites it's subtly different. To me it feels like a variation on Japanese made for a fantasy/medieval anime world. Not sure why, but that's my impression. I like it & look forward to the declension & conjugation info.Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:10 pm I'm enjoying the phonoaesthetic result so far.
The definite forms tend to feel very Japanese, I think, while the Indefinite forms seem a bit more... Persian...? French? some sort of oddly soft Germanic?
Vardelm's Scratchpad Table of Contents (Dwarven, Devani, Jin, & Yokai)
- Rounin Ryuuji
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic
That's a good deal of what it's for, though Mediaeval would probably not accurately describe the world, which doesn't slot in nicely at all with any one period of our own: smaller towns might look vaguely similar to something from Georgian England, but with more odd intrusions of crystal, generally magical-looking things; the material culture is heavily influenced not only by the fantasies I've mentioned already, but by Anglo-Japanese art (albeit perhaps with the elements reversed, as if a culture that might at one point have looked more Japanese took in things from Europe centuries earlier and nativised them rather than trying to Westernise all at once), a sort of inversion of the idea of Japonisme. Cooking seems to be as mismashed as anything you might find in a developed country today (characters mention eating quiches, stir-fries, "stacktoast" — had to invent a new word for "sandwich on toast", "potatoes Kokori" ("French fries"), and some sort of tomato-based sauce all in the same region as if none of these things were particularly remarkable; rice is, however, not as common as would be expected, but it certainly is eaten with some frequency). This is at least partly because I like cooking...Vardelm wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:22 amI agree. It's Japanese-ish, but especially with the indefinites it's subtly different. To me it feels like a variation on Japanese made for a fantasy/medieval anime world. Not sure why, but that's my impression. I like it & look forward to the declension & conjugation info.Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:10 pm I'm enjoying the phonoaesthetic result so far.
The definite forms tend to feel very Japanese, I think, while the Indefinite forms seem a bit more... Persian...? French? some sort of oddly soft Germanic?
Re: A little dabbling in Japonic
Cool! ![Cool 8-)](./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif)
![Cool 8-)](./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif)
Vardelm's Scratchpad Table of Contents (Dwarven, Devani, Jin, & Yokai)
- Rounin Ryuuji
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Re: A little dabbling in Japonic
Thank you.
Anyway, I've had some technical difficulties today, but I think my word processor is finally sorted out enough to give some basic nominal morphology tables; they don't list every possible declensional pattern and irregularity (which will take some time to produce), but I think it gives a good enough overview.
Also, while the individual "Kanji" (I don't have an internal name for them yet) characters will always have fairly predictable readings, any good Japonic language must have an orthography which is in some way at least a little bit of an absolute clusterfuck; it is mentioned in the document on inflections, but the retrofitted Kana spellings are... some of them not very intuitive if you speak Japanese, being based on the ancestor of the current language as it was spoken several generations before the narrative present, the Ineshîmé themselves not being greatly fond of orthographical reforms when everything is already written like this anyway. There are, fortunately, not analogues on'yomi and kun'yomi to make it too frustrating to bear.
Re: A little dabbling in Japonic
Oh god, that etymological spelling. It's hideous. I love it.