Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Natural languages and linguistics
User avatar
Pabappa
Posts: 1359
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:36 am
Location: the Impossible Forest
Contact:

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by Pabappa »

Richard W wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:50 am "The people sat at the top table were not amused" is perfectly grammatical in my idiolect. Is that grammatical in US English?
That would be an odd construction in my dialect, but at least the noun is animate .... at least part of what stops me from saying "the plant sat on the windowsill" and similar sentences is that we don't seat plants, we set them. Though I suppose youre right .... if i can say "the plant is sitting on the sill", that proves it can have inanimate subjects, so why cant I just use the past tense of that?

Sometimes I think things we hear as ungrammatical are perfectly grammatical and just not often used. e.g. according to https://www.etymonline.com/word/as , "as" and "so" are semantically interchangeable, and while one can say "as big as a cougar" and "so big as a cougar", nobody says "*so big so a cougar". (Someone told me that it was once common to use the third form hundreds of years ago, showing that sometimes expressions just fall out of fashion.)
Richard W
Posts: 1405
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:53 pm

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by Richard W »

Pabappa wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:01 pm Sometimes I think things we hear as ungrammatical are perfectly grammatical and just not often used. e.g. according to https://www.etymonline.com/word/as , "as" and "so" are semantically interchangeable, and while one can say "as big as a cougar" and "so big as a cougar", nobody says "*so big so a cougar". (Someone told me that it was once common to use the third form hundreds of years ago, showing that sometimes expressions just fall out of fashion.)
I have the depressing feeling that people's grammars aren't so much generative grammars using a set of rules and a tagged lexicon as a set of n-grams, perhaps augmented by substitution and embedding rules. This may be related to my feeling that "The piano played the man" is surreal rather than ungrammatical. Certainly I didn't blink when Terry Pratchett wrote of a musical instrument playing its apparent player.
User avatar
cedh
Posts: 198
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:55 am
Location: Tübingen, Germany
Contact:

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by cedh »

bradrn wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:53 am
chris_notts wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:46 am I'd actually like recommendations for other books which bring together chapters on a single functional area by language experts.
I would love some too — I’m always looking for such books to expand my linguistic knowledge. (I’ve even been thinking of making a thread to collect these sort of recommendations.) The only comparable resource that I know of and which wasn’t written by Dixon is Palmer’s Mood and Modality, which you can get from The Stack. (It probably isn’t quite what you’re looking for — it’s just a book on mood and modality, without any language-specific chapters — but it’s nonetheless an extremely useful resource.)
Several academic publishers have series that include at least some books of this type (with many of the relevant books published between 2000-2010, which may be a hint that these were possibly inspired by Dixon & Aikhenvald to some extent, although they often don't seem to be quite as focused on a particular topic, or do not really include a framework with which to compare the different languages). For example:

- Typological studies in language (TSIL, John Benjamins Co.)
- Studies in language companion series (SLCS, John Benjamins Co.)
- Empirical approaches to language typology (EALT, Mouton de Gruyter)
- Studies in diversity linguistics (SDL, Language Science Press)

The latter series is open access, a good number of books from the other series are included in the Stack.

[EDIT:] Some interesting individual books from these series:
- "Typology of resultative constructions" (ed. Nedjalkov 1988, TSIL 12)
- "Converbs in cross-linguistic perspective" (ed. Haspelmath & König 1995, EALT 13)
- "The linguistics of giving" / "...of sitting, standing and lying" / "...of eating and drinking" (ed. Newman 1998 / 2002 / 2009, TSIL 36 / 51 / 84)
- "External possession" (ed. Payne & Barshi 1999, TSIL 39)
- "Coordinating constructions" (ed. Haspelmath 2004, TSIL 58)
- "Non-nominative subjects" (ed. Bhaskararao & Subbarao 2004, TSIL 60 & 61)
- "Reciprocal constructions" (ed. Nedjalkov 2007, TSIL 71)
- "Grammatical borrowing in cross-linguistic perspective" (ed. Matras & Sakel 2007, EALT 38)
- "Benefactives and malefactives" (ed. Zúñiga & Kittilä 2010, TSIL 92)
- "Events of putting and taking" (ed. Kopecka & Narasimhan 2012, TSIL 100)
- "Relative clauses in languages of the Americas" (ed. Comrie & Estrada Fernández 2012, TSIL 102)
- "Bridging constructions" (ed. Guérin 2018, SDL 24)
bradrn
Posts: 5667
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:25 am

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by bradrn »

Qwynegold wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:18 am Now I've gotten that far in that thread. I have what you call "S=A verbs" and "S=O verbs". I think.
I don’t think so. S=A and S=O only apply for languages with ambitransitive verbs, and languages with active-stative alignments; your language is neither. Possibly this would be a good place to use ‘unergative’ and ‘unaccusative’? (Although, as I said above, I’m still not entirely confident I understand those words.)
Transitivity and voice
Each verb in Proto-Kunnu-lūjungo is inherently either transitive and intransitive. Intransitive verbs can further be divided into two types: Those that take an agent argument and those that take a patient argument. Hūjupk'a (run) is an example of an intransitive verb that takes an agent argument, the person who runs. Hyuk'yoya (freeze) is an example of an intransitive verb that takes a patient argument, the thing that turns into ice, not the person who is freezing something. The table below shows which kind of verbs can take which voice and transitivity suffixes, and what cases their arguments will have. The number in parenthesis corresponds to the example sentences in the following sections.

Code: Select all

                   INTR                       TR                  PASS                       CAUS
Intransitive verb  agent-ABS verb-INTR (1)    -                   verb-PASS (5)              causer-ABS causee-ALL
taking A                                                                                     verb-CAUS (7)

Intransitive verb  patient-ABS verb-INTR (2)  -                   -                          agent-ERG patient-ALL
taking P                                                                                     verb-CAUS (8)

Transitive verb    agent-ABS verb-INTR (3)    agent-ERG patient-  patient-ABS verb-PASS (6)  causer-ERG causee-ALL 
                                              ABS verb-TR (4)                                patient-ABS verb-CAUS (9)
One interesting thing about this system that I can see is that your intransitive verbs always take absolutive, regardless of whether the argument is agentive or patientive. This is totally realistic, but there is another option: you could also turn this into an active-stative language: always use the nominative case for agents and the absolutive for patients, so transitives get ‘agent-NOM patient-ACC’, S=A intransitives get ‘agent-NOM’, and S=O intransitives get ‘patient-ACC’. But what you have right now is fine.)

(This point also makes me question the value of splitting up intransitive verbs into two subclasses, as you do: if both agentive and patientive intransitive use the same case-marking, and are treated the same in nearly all constructions (except possibly passives), why is it so important to split them up like this?)
The intransitive marker can be used on inherently transitive verbs for the purpose of removing the object from the sentence. The reason for doing this can be because it is obvious from context what the object is, so it does not need to be mentioned.

Code: Select all

3) 	Pot'-a 	p'yowochya-tto-ng.
	1SG-ABS 	eat-INTR-PRES
	I eat.
This is just an antipassive. But it’s hard to know whether it is more sensible to analyse this as an intransitivising suffix which has some of the functions of an antipassive, or as an antipassive which happens to be homophonous with the intransitive suffix. Given that you also apply this suffix to all intransitive verbs (which seems pretty weird to me actually, since this language has no ambitransitive verbs), I would suggest the former.
Now, as this is still very much a WIP, I'm not sure yet whether passive voice should be banned on "intransitive verbs taking P" or not. It makes sense not to allow it, because the passive voice deletes A, but these verbs don't even have an A to begin with. But that doesn't mean the morpheme can't be used, it would just have some other meaning in that case.
That seems sensible, although I’m not too knowledgable about this area.
*The causer, causee and direct object are all optional, but at least one of the three must be present in a given sentence.
I'm not sure about this part. This is something I wrote a really long time ago, and I don't know if it still holds true or not.
I’m not too sure about this either. It makes more sense if your language has pervasive ambitransitivity, but yours doesn’t.

Richard W wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:38 pm
Pabappa wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:01 pm Sometimes I think things we hear as ungrammatical are perfectly grammatical and just not often used. e.g. according to https://www.etymonline.com/word/as , "as" and "so" are semantically interchangeable, and while one can say "as big as a cougar" and "so big as a cougar", nobody says "*so big so a cougar". (Someone told me that it was once common to use the third form hundreds of years ago, showing that sometimes expressions just fall out of fashion.)
I have the depressing feeling that people's grammars aren't so much generative grammars using a set of rules and a tagged lexicon as a set of n-grams, perhaps augmented by substitution and embedding rules. This may be related to my feeling that "The piano played the man" is surreal rather than ungrammatical. Certainly I didn't blink when Terry Pratchett wrote of a musical instrument playing its apparent player.
That’s because ‘the piano played the man’ is grammatical. It just doesn’t make semantic sense (outside the relevant context, that is). It’s like Chomsky’s famous sentence ‘colourless green ideas sleep furiously’.
cedh wrote: Several academic publishers have series that include at least some books of this type (with many of the relevant books published between 2000-2010, which may be a hint that these were possibly inspired by Dixon & Aikhenvald to some extent, although they often don't seem to be quite as focused on a particular topic, or do not really include a framework with which to compare the different languages). For example:
Thanks for the recommendations! I’ll have a look at them and see if I can find anything useful.
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices

(Why does phpBB not let me add >5 links here?)
Richard W
Posts: 1405
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:53 pm

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by Richard W »

bradrn wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:08 pm That’s because ‘the piano played the man’ is grammatical. It just doesn’t make semantic sense (outside the relevant context, that is). It’s like Chomsky’s famous sentence ‘colourless green ideas sleep furiously’.
To which last one the correct response is, 'No, they're on the march'!
bradrn
Posts: 5667
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:25 am

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by bradrn »

Richard W wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:25 am
bradrn wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:08 pm That’s because ‘the piano played the man’ is grammatical. It just doesn’t make semantic sense (outside the relevant context, that is). It’s like Chomsky’s famous sentence ‘colourless green ideas sleep furiously’.
To which last one the correct response is, 'No, they're on the march'!
I’m not sure I understand this response…
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices

(Why does phpBB not let me add >5 links here?)
Richard W
Posts: 1405
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:53 pm

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by Richard W »

bradrn wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:27 am
Richard W wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:25 am
bradrn wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:08 pm That’s because ‘the piano played the man’ is grammatical. It just doesn’t make semantic sense (outside the relevant context, that is). It’s like Chomsky’s famous sentence ‘colourless green ideas sleep furiously’.
To which last one the correct response is, 'No, they're on the march'!
I’m not sure I understand this response…
Think Green Party. As colourless and anaemic overlap in meaning, the famous sentence makes sense as a metaphorical political comment.
bradrn
Posts: 5667
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:25 am

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by bradrn »

Richard W wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:34 am
bradrn wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:27 am
Richard W wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:25 am
To which last one the correct response is, 'No, they're on the march'!
I’m not sure I understand this response…
Think Green Party. As colourless and anaemic overlap in meaning, the famous sentence makes sense as a metaphorical political comment.
Oh, right — I completely missed the political overtones. (Which isn’t too hard, given that I was thinking about linguistics rather than politics.)
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices

(Why does phpBB not let me add >5 links here?)
MacAnDàil
Posts: 714
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:10 pm

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by MacAnDàil »

@Cedh: Wow! Thanks for letting us know these ressources exist!
Richard W
Posts: 1405
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:53 pm

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by Richard W »

Pabappa wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:01 pm Sometimes I think things we hear as ungrammatical are perfectly grammatical and just not often used. e.g. according to https://www.etymonline.com/word/as , "as" and "so" are semantically interchangeable, and while one can say "as big as a cougar" and "so big as a cougar", nobody says "*so big so a cougar".
But etymonline seems to be wrong. In these phrases, the as in the middle indicates a basis for comparison - many if not most people's grammars treat it as a preposition.
Qwynegold
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:03 pm
Location: Stockholm

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by Qwynegold »

Richard W wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:03 amI think Zompist was thinking that 'resigned' means 'who had resigned', as opposed to one 'who was resigned to having to start a new company'.
Ah, that was the meaning I intended too.
zompist wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:51 amAs to why the sentence is wrong, I'd have to do research!
Ah ha ha, let's not go that far. Anyhow, it turned out that the terms unaccusative and unergative were not what I was looking for.
Qwynegold
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:03 pm
Location: Stockholm

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by Qwynegold »

bradrn wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:08 pm
Qwynegold wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:18 am Now I've gotten that far in that thread. I have what you call "S=A verbs" and "S=O verbs". I think.
I don’t think so. S=A and S=O only apply for languages with ambitransitive verbs, and languages with active-stative alignments; your language is neither. Possibly this would be a good place to use ‘unergative’ and ‘unaccusative’? (Although, as I said above, I’m still not entirely confident I understand those words.)
Oh? I'll have to reread that part of your thread to see what I've misunderstood...
bradrn wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:08 pm

Code: Select all

                   INTR                       TR                  PASS                       CAUS
Intransitive verb  agent-ABS verb-INTR (1)    -                   verb-PASS (5)              causer-ABS causee-ALL
taking A                                                                                     verb-CAUS (7)

Intransitive verb  patient-ABS verb-INTR (2)  -                   -                          agent-ERG patient-ALL
taking P                                                                                     verb-CAUS (8)

Transitive verb    agent-ABS verb-INTR (3)    agent-ERG patient-  patient-ABS verb-PASS (6)  causer-ERG causee-ALL 
                                              ABS verb-TR (4)                                patient-ABS verb-CAUS (9)
(This point also makes me question the value of splitting up intransitive verbs into two subclasses, as you do: if both agentive and patientive intransitive use the same case-marking, and are treated the same in nearly all constructions (except possibly passives), why is it so important to split them up like this?)
It's not just the passive, the causative is also different. Or maybe technically they aren't different, but it needs to be pointed out specifically, or otherwise you'll end up using the P-intransitives wrong, because they function very differently than in European languages. I also need terms I can use in the dictionary for indicating which type each verb is.
bradrn wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:08 pm
The intransitive marker can be used on inherently transitive verbs for the purpose of removing the object from the sentence. The reason for doing this can be because it is obvious from context what the object is, so it does not need to be mentioned.

Code: Select all

3) 	Pot'-a 	p'yowochya-tto-ng.
	1SG-ABS 	eat-INTR-PRES
	I eat.
This is just an antipassive. But it’s hard to know whether it is more sensible to analyse this as an intransitivising suffix which has some of the functions of an antipassive, or as an antipassive which happens to be homophonous with the intransitive suffix. Given that you also apply this suffix to all intransitive verbs (which seems pretty weird to me actually, since this language has no ambitransitive verbs), I would suggest the former.
Yeah, I know it functions as an antipassive. I should mention that in the grammar. And yeah, the intransitive suffix is weird. I had planned on making that part change quickly in all the daugherlangs. I don't know how to explain where this language got that from, but maybe this language got it recently from some kind of grammar changes, and is in the process of turning that into something more sensible. :mrgreen:

Thanks for taking a look on my conlang and explaining things. :D
bradrn
Posts: 5667
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:25 am

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by bradrn »

Qwynegold wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:37 am
bradrn wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:08 pm
Qwynegold wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:18 am Now I've gotten that far in that thread. I have what you call "S=A verbs" and "S=O verbs". I think.
I don’t think so. S=A and S=O only apply for languages with ambitransitive verbs, and languages with active-stative alignments; your language is neither. Possibly this would be a good place to use ‘unergative’ and ‘unaccusative’? (Although, as I said above, I’m still not entirely confident I understand those words.)
Oh? I'll have to reread that part of your thread to see what I've misunderstood...
What I meant was that S=A or S=O implies that S is being marked similarly to A or O in some way. So either you have ambitransitive verbs where S is variously equated to A or O (e.g. I break the window vs It breaks means that break is an S=O ambitransitive verb), or you have some sort of active-stative alignment where S is variously marked the same as A or O. You have neither: none of your verbs are ambitransitive, and S is always marked the same as O.
bradrn wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:08 pm

Code: Select all

                   INTR                       TR                  PASS                       CAUS
Intransitive verb  agent-ABS verb-INTR (1)    -                   verb-PASS (5)              causer-ABS causee-ALL
taking A                                                                                     verb-CAUS (7)

Intransitive verb  patient-ABS verb-INTR (2)  -                   -                          agent-ERG patient-ALL
taking P                                                                                     verb-CAUS (8)

Transitive verb    agent-ABS verb-INTR (3)    agent-ERG patient-  patient-ABS verb-PASS (6)  causer-ERG causee-ALL 
                                              ABS verb-TR (4)                                patient-ABS verb-CAUS (9)
(This point also makes me question the value of splitting up intransitive verbs into two subclasses, as you do: if both agentive and patientive intransitive use the same case-marking, and are treated the same in nearly all constructions (except possibly passives), why is it so important to split them up like this?)
It's not just the passive, the causative is also different. Or maybe technically they aren't different, but it needs to be pointed out specifically, or otherwise you'll end up using the P-intransitives wrong, because they function very differently than in European languages. I also need terms I can use in the dictionary for indicating which type each verb is.
True — I didn’t notice that. One question about the causatives: is there any particular reason why A-intransitives (maybe you could call them that?) and transitive verbs have a ‘causer’ and ‘causee’, but P-intransitives have an ‘agent’ and ‘patient’?
Thanks for taking a look on my conlang and explaining things. :D
You’re welcome!
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices

(Why does phpBB not let me add >5 links here?)
bradrn
Posts: 5667
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:25 am

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by bradrn »

To reopen the subject of Dixon’s reliability: I’ve been thinking a bit about what everyone’s said, and I’ve been reading some more of his work, and I think I’ve come to the following conclusions:
  • Very little of what Dixon says is actually wrong, as such; it can be quite opinionated (although most articles on linguistics are, to some extent), but for most non-theoretical topics, he seems to say the same things as most other mainstream linguistics. (For more formal and theoretical topics, he does seem to be fairly different, but I don’t mind that as I’m not too interested in linguistic theory.)
  • His main interest seems to be typology; in particular, he likes to enumerate and classify the various different methods that languages use to express linguistic phenomena. This seems to make up the bulk of Basic Linguistic Theory, volumes 2 and 3. (In this he seems to have a similar aim to the WALS chapters, another one of my favourite resources.) In doing this, he is often extraordinarily comprehensive, including pretty much every major (and most non-major) way to form the construction in question. (For a concrete example, the section of Basic Linguistic Theory on demonstratives carefully distinguishes the three different types of demonstratives, explains the many different ways that demonstrative words can be formed and merged, and lists all the ways demonstratives can differ from each other. All three points are ones which I’ve been trying to learn for quite a while now, but outside Basic Linguistic Theory I haven’t yet found such a detailed overview of the area.)
  • Unfortunately, he often tries to accompany his typological descriptions with attempts at categorising the various constructions used by languages for the area in question. And he doesn’t seem to be so good at that: his attempts at categorisation mostly range from the horribly forced and un-useful (e.g. his list of methods of clause combining) to the vaguely relevant (e.g. his distinction between ‘complement clauses’ and ‘complementation strategies’, or his list of copula types), with only a few being useful enough to gain wider acceptance (e.g. S/A/O).
Does this seem like a reasonable assessment of Dixon’s work?

(I think it would also be useful for me to explain the context of why I’m so fixated on assessing the work of Dixon — who, really, isn’t even terribly prominent in the scheme of things. Recently I’ve been trying to teach myself linguistics in a bit more depth, in the hopes of gaining a much more detailed overview of some key areas — the ultimate goal being of course to improve my conlanging. Unfortunately, for many areas, it seems to be hard to find materials which give a good, detailed overview of that area. And this is where Dixon comes in: many of his resources, particularly Basic Linguistic Theory, have excellent and detailed coverage of areas I want to know more about (above I gave the example of demonstratives, but there are many others). However, many more linguistically knowledgable people here have criticised Dixon’s writing (particularly Basic Linguistic Theory), so I’m now fairly wary of using him as my only source of information for the areas where I can’t find anything else. But it seems a pity to abandon such useful resources, so I would prefer to have an understanding of his strengths and weaknesses, so I can use his works while being able to know which parts I shouldn’t rely on. On the other hand, if anyone can suggest a resource of comparable depth and breadth to Basic Linguistic Theory which is a bit more reliable, I would love to know about it!)

____________________________________

And now, a question on a completely different topic (pun not intended): I always assumed that ‘topic’ and ‘focus’ were two words for the same thing, but earlier today I was reading Wikipedia, which mentions that they are different. What are topic and focus really, and how do they differ?
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices

(Why does phpBB not let me add >5 links here?)
chris_notts
Posts: 677
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:35 pm

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by chris_notts »

I don't think the problems with using Dixon as a source are any worse than most other authors, and he's much better than a lot of others you could choose.

I guess with Dixon we have:

Data: Generally good
Presentation: Mixed (books he edits with other authors are often good, Basic Linguistic Theory is readable, his grammar of Jarawara was really hard going)
Conclusions: take with a pinch of salt sometimes

But I think getting a second opinion is generally a good idea. Here are some others you could try if you want another typologically driven overview:

Language Typology and Syntactic Description, edited by Shopen
Syntax: A Functional-Typological Introduction, by Givon

These come with their own problems, e.g. Givon's determination to see universal functional motivations for almost everything.

But seriously, don't worry too much about Dixon. I've used his books to structure some parts of the grammar I'm working on right now, just because they are a relatively good starting point even if they're not perfect. It's a bit of a mess and not finished, but I could post it if you're interested.
bradrn
Posts: 5667
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:25 am

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by bradrn »

chris_notts wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:51 am I don't think the problems with using Dixon as a source are any worse than most other authors, and he's much better than a lot of others you could choose.
That is true actually… now that I think about it, I don’t think I’ve ever yet seen a linguistic book which isn’t opinionated in some way. (Except for zompist’s books, but I suppose those don’t really count in the same way.)
I guess with Dixon we have:

Data: Generally good
Presentation: Mixed (books he edits with other authors are often good, Basic Linguistic Theory is readable, his grammar of Jarawara was really hard going)
Conclusions: take with a pinch of salt sometimes
That’s basically what I was trying to get across in my previous post, but you said it much more concisely than I did. (Although I suppose presentation is more subjective: personally I really like Dixon’s presentation, especially Basic Linguistic Theory, but found his series with Aikhenvald to be less well presented.)
But I think getting a second opinion is generally a good idea. Here are some others you could try if you want another typologically driven overview:

Language Typology and Syntactic Description, edited by Shopen
Syntax: A Functional-Typological Introduction, by Givon

These come with their own problems, e.g. Givon's determination to see universal functional motivations for almost everything.
Thanks so much for these recommendations! I’ll see if I can track them down — from the titles, these sound like exactly the sort of books I was looking for.
But seriously, don't worry too much about Dixon. I've used his books to structure some parts of the grammar I'm working on right now, just because they are a relatively good starting point even if they're not perfect. It's a bit of a mess and not finished, but I could post it if you're interested.
True — I should probably stop worrying about this too much. Mainly I wanted to avoid falling into the trap of blindly accepting what he says because I don’t have any alternate sources to use. (I know I’ve done that at least once with Dixon, requiring quite a bit of conversation with other ZBB members before I realised my mistake — and I’m sure I’ve done that with other authors as well.)
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices

(Why does phpBB not let me add >5 links here?)
chris_notts
Posts: 677
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:35 pm

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by chris_notts »

bradrn wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:44 pm And now, a question on a completely different topic (pun not intended): I always assumed that ‘topic’ and ‘focus’ were two words for the same thing, but earlier today I was reading Wikipedia, which mentions that they are different. What are topic and focus really, and how do they differ?
Topic and focus are two of the most abused terms in linguistics! Firstly, we need to deal with language specific usages, such as calling the trigger the focus in Austronesian languages with complex voice systems basically because it's not obvious if it's a subject or not. Despite the name, it's not obvious that the "focus" is a focus in the most commonly understood sense.

In the pragmatic sense, a topic is normally defined by aboutness. But this can mean different things depending on the context. For example, sometimes when people say topic they mean discourse topics. Discourse topics are the highly persistent referents that appear in clause after clause. They're the speech act participants (I, you), the protagonists of stories, the references that can most easily be represented by minimally marked references like verbal agreement alone or unstressed pronouns.

But below the level of discourse, individual clauses often have a topic. If I say "John'll be back from school at 6pm", the chances are I'm trying to give you information about John (because you want to see him but he's not here), not about the school or about things happening at 6pm. The reason the concept of topic is tricky for English speakers is that English has no one device that marks topics, but a number that can, including:
  • Location of emphatic stress (placing it on the subject marks that the subject is unexpectedly not the sentence topic
  • Grammatical voice, and in particular use of the passive to promote topics to subject
  • Choice of referential devices
  • Various constructions such as "as for", "speaking of", ...
I said before that clauses or sentences often have a topic because there are also thetic statements where everything is asserted and non-topical. If you ask "what happened?" and I say "A man arrived" (note the emphatic stress on the subject when you say this), the unidentified man is highly unlikely to be a topic. Instead the entire clause is new information. If there is a topic at all, it's some kind of default, unspoken stage topic. The clause is about what happened at an non-overt time and place.

You need to distinguish as well here between new topics and old topics. An old topic, one predictable from previous clauses, will generally be realised as minimally as possible. Zero if the language allows it, an unstressed or clitic pronoun, or verbal agreement. A new topic, when the topic changes and the speaker feels the need to mark this fact, will be highly prominent, and its marking may be similar in some ways to focus marking. Both contrastive foci and new topics need to be prominent, and many languages use similar devices for both.

The normal use of focus is to mean the most strongly asserted part of the sentence. The strongest form of focus, and the most commonly marked cross-linguistically, is normally contrastive argument focus, where a single constituent is asserted either from a closed list of possibilities or in contradiction to the expectations of the listener. An example would be: "No, John broke the vase", where the vase breaking is known, and only the identity of the breaker is asserted. Not all clauses have a single constituent in focus in this way. More commonly, the entire clause apart from the topic (also known as the "comment") is in some sense focal or at least non-topical, but this is a bit of a default and not overtly marked in many languages.

Many works distinguish the following common pragmatic patterns at the sentence/clause level:

Predicate focus - There is a topic, and the rest of clause/sentence constitutes an assertion about that topic
Argument focus - There is a (contrastive) focus, and the rest of the clause is background information
Sentence focus - The entire clause/sentence is focal/new information

Specific books may also distinguish between background and topic, and between assertion and focus. But I don't think there is complete agreement right now on exactly what all of these terms mean, how they differ, and how the (presumably universal) psychology of attention and interest map onto linguistic structures.
chris_notts
Posts: 677
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:35 pm

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by chris_notts »

@bradrn: I don't know if it will help, but here's how I've tried to use these kind of typological books in my own grammar: https://www.verduria.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=595
chris_notts
Posts: 677
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:35 pm

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by chris_notts »

Another point: referentiality interacts with topic and focus. For obvious reasons, a non-specific, non-generic NP cannot be topical because it makes no sense to say something "about" an entity that the hearer can't identify. A clause like "I eat pizza on Friday night" isn't normally a statement about the unidentifiable pizzas that get eaten in the process. Even worse are non-specifics in irrealis contexts:

I might eat a pizza tomorrow
I didn't eat a pizza yesterday
?? As for a pizza, I might eat it tomorrow
??As for a pizza, I didn't eat it yesterday
zompist
Site Admin
Posts: 2681
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:46 am
Location: Right here, probably
Contact:

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by zompist »

That's an excellent discussion of topic and focus, thanks!
chris_notts wrote:??As for a pizza, I didn't eat it yesterday
But it's fine to say "As for pizza, I love it."

As I think about it, I'm tempted to call "pizza" here definite, or maybe pseudo-definite. We can have a long conversation about pizza, where it's obviously the topic, and never say "the pizza". We're not talking about one specific entity, but we are talking about one specific classification within the larger category of food.

In support of this, many languages would use the definite article here— e.g. Spanish "Me encanta la pizza."
Post Reply