Development of numeral system

Conworlds and conlangs
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StrangerCoug
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Development of numeral system

Post by StrangerCoug »

So I've got a conculture from what's supposed to be ancient times (my English placeholder until I bother with coming up with a native name is Westforester). They have a base 20 numeral system with a subbase of 5; the spoken language arguably has a further subbase of 2 (it basically goes "one, two, two-one, two-two, five, five and one, five and two, five and two-one..." all the way up to "two-one fives and two-two" for 19, but 20 is its own word—you don't say "two-two fives").

Their first way of writing numerals is supposed to be based on how they're represented in an abacus. Their version of it is simply a wooden box with compartments for stones—you don't have beads sliding on rods like the Chinese do. As in on the Chinese abacus, a stone above the horizontal divider represents 5 and a stone below the divider represents 1. It is big-endian, but since the language is written from right-to-left the largest place value goes on the right and the smallest place values go on the left. This is a true place-value system, and there are no implicit zeroes. This, for example, is the deliberately arbitrarily large number JIHG,FEDC,BA98,7654,3210 in vigesimal (in decimal it's 104,567,135,734,072,022,160,664,820)—they only have words for numbers up to eight vigesimal digits yet. I apologize for the lines not being perfectly straight.
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The actual arrangement and orientation of the dots doesn't matter so long as they're all there and in the right place according to the rules. There are ways to represent fractions, but for the simplicity of discussion I'm mostly limiting this to integers.

Now the Westforesters are supposed to live in an empire that lasts a long time by my conworld's standards—nearly two millennia. Over the years, they start thinking that drawing all those lines and putting in all those dots is a little tedious, so they do some cursive simplifications and arrive at something like this:
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The circle for 10 is not transparent and perhaps requires an explanation. One way of representing fractions with "abacus numerals", as I call them, is sexagesimally: circles are used instead of dots to distinguish between the two uses (it's supposed to reflect the use of different-colored stones), and each circle above the divider represents 10 instead of 5 (each circle below the divider still represents 1).

I'd like some comments on the numeral system in general and whether this is a plausible development. I still see some room for improvement—in particular, I think some of the digits could do with being a little more distinct from each other so smaller digits are harder to fraudulently change to larger digits—that motivated some of the changes in my first draft (I was going to ask if the 1 should slant the other way—having it perfectly vertical is not an option since a vertical line is now supposed to represent the "vigesimal point"—but before I posted I realized it can still be changed easily to an 18 either way.) What do you think?
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Pabappa
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Re: Development of numeral system

Post by Pabappa »

I dont know. How many bankers are there that are literate compared to the general population? Weve survived thousands of years with 3 and 8 being very similar and we get around it, at least in the present day, by spelling out "three" and "eight" when there is the potential for misuse. But those contexts are rare. There's also the "banker's three" which has a flat top, which has spread partly to general use but has not become the standard because people like to incorporate personal style into their handwriting.
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StrangerCoug
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Re: Development of numeral system

Post by StrangerCoug »

Pabappa wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:09 pmI dont know. How many bankers are there that are literate compared to the general population?
It wasn't something I thought about before reading your question, so I don't have a straight answer to give you, but I'm currently thinking about making the free (i.e. not enslaved) people that are wealthy enough to afford an education literate.
Travis B.
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Re: Development of numeral system

Post by Travis B. »

Pabappa wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:09 pm I dont know. How many bankers are there that are literate compared to the general population? Weve survived thousands of years with 3 and 8 being very similar and we get around it, at least in the present day, by spelling out "three" and "eight" when there is the potential for misuse. But those contexts are rare. There's also the "banker's three" which has a flat top, which has spread partly to general use but has not become the standard because people like to incorporate personal style into their handwriting.
Umm Western Arabic numerals in the form we recognize them today have been around for less than a thousand years (even though Hindu numerals originated somewhere around the 1st to 4th centuries).
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka ha wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate ha eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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masako
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Re: Development of numeral system

Post by masako »

https://youtu.be/EyS6FfczH0Q

Please watch this. It's very informative.

https://youtu.be/Pas7A1mZbdU << The follow up vid.
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StrangerCoug
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Re: Development of numeral system

Post by StrangerCoug »

I'm already aware of both videos; the abacus numerals are inspired by them.
Richard W
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Re: Development of numeral system

Post by Richard W »

StrangerCoug wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:05 pm I still see some room for improvement—in particular, I think some of the digits could do with being a little more distinct from each other so smaller digits are harder to fraudulently change to larger digits—that motivated some of the changes in my first draft (I was going to ask if the 1 should slant the other way—having it perfectly vertical is not an option since a vertical line is now supposed to represent the "vigesimal point"—but before I posted I realized it can still be changed easily to an 18 either way.)
Chinese numbers have special forms ('financial characters') for use in commercial records and the like to make such modification much harder. They haven't replaced the simpler forms in normal use. Actually, it's useful to be able to modify digits - don't you find yourself doing it?
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Re: Development of numeral system

Post by StrangerCoug »

I think the consensus here is that the digit set I arrived at is good for normal use and alternate digits will come up in contexts the user community feels necessary.

Another question: About how long a period of time should I allow for going from the "abacus numerals" to separate disconnected forms from the digits, given that the latter is supposed to derive from the former? I imagine the second set of numerals being used in the later part of the empire's history, not during its earliest days.
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quinterbeck
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Re: Development of numeral system

Post by quinterbeck »

What medium are your conpeople using to write down the abacus numbers? Do they change to a different medium at some point? That might facilitate the transition to the vigesimal digit set
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Re: Development of numeral system

Post by StrangerCoug »

quinterbeck wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:31 am What medium are your conpeople using to write down the abacus numbers? Do they change to a different medium at some point? That might facilitate the transition to the vigesimal digit set
I like the idea of it switching over time. Maybe they start with clay for the abacus numerals, then they get access to papyrus or a similar substitute and they use that.

Edited to add: They're supposed to be true to their name in living in a forested area. What technology do they need to make paper?
Richard W
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Re: Development of numeral system

Post by Richard W »

StrangerCoug wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:30 pm They're supposed to be true to their name in living in a forested area. What technology do they need to make paper?
Knives for slicing off birch bark?
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Xwtek
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Re: Development of numeral system

Post by Xwtek »

It seems that the Chinese financial digit is based on homophony. 捌 is a variant character of 朳 that means to break open. It's a homophone of 八 even in Middle Chinese. 玖 means a black gemstone that is poorer than jade. It's also pronounced as 九 in Middle Chinese. 壹, 貳, 肆, 陸, and 拾 are also homophones. additionally, 柒 is a variant character of another character that is homophonic to the number. The other source is the word originally meant for troop grouping, which is formed by a person radical + number letter. 零 is a special case. It's the original letter but it's substituted with 〇, a loan digit from Arabic numeral. The other special case is 參, which I believe is a near homophone (one of the possible pronunciation is /t͡sʰʌm/ which is close enough to /sɑm/).
IPA of my name: [xʷtɛ̀k]

Favourite morphology: Polysynthetic, Ablaut
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