Early 2020's Work on Movie and TV Famous Pakuni and Atlantean Conlangs

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Bob
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Early 2020's Work on Movie and TV Famous Pakuni and Atlantean Conlangs

Post by Bob »

Early 2020's Work on Movie and TV Famous Pakuni and Atlantean Conlangs

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Some images from facebook posts about recent work with these languages:


Land of the Lost's Pakuni Language:

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Okrand Atlantean Language:

Image


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Image


Image


Image


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Since about New Year's Day, I've had been working on a big series of projects involving the Pakuni or Paku language from the big hit American 1970s kids sci fi tv show "Land of the Lost". I'm the first language scientist to do decipherment work on the language and make it available publically.

A few weeks ago, I set those aside to work for hopefully a month focusing on the Atlantean language from Disney's 2001 "Atlantis: The Lost Empire" ATLE. I did most of the decipherment work for this language back in 2006 and around then was made top leader of its largest online community, then the Yahoo Group "The Atlantean Language Group". The last 10 years, I revisit the language about twice a year for 5 hours each.

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I'm not only the head decipherer of these languages, these are also by far the largest translation works ever done into these languages. Of course, the fans are thrilled, especially the c 50 year old Land of the Lost fans who have waited their lifetimes for this and now see some 30 year old doing it, like a magical cackling leprechaun.

It's fun doing the posts on the big fan facebook groups for these works and watching the fans' jaws drop and show's of appreciation. But it's all a bit (boring) and (over the head) for almost all of them. I try to make the posts interesting and accessible but often what I want to post about is not so much the language but the theory going into the text selection and translation and all this. And I usually ramble on and on and on like TLDR and Cool Story Bro. But it's still hard work and it's amazing that anyone has done this. And I think I reach people and enough people, so it's well worth it.

And, in some ways, it's the best season to be a scientist and to promote science because so many people are "dying to believe in science" and even more seem to be coming up in about 7 days or less, on average. Alas, some of the victims are themselves pro-science but must suffer due to the anti-science beliefs of others. And I am a believer in belief and other tolerance, even in a perhaps intolerant age, state, and country. So I should be happy to have all along been apart of the solution that NOBODY wants, anywhere.

Pete Hamill in his 1995 "A Drinking Life: A Memoir" says that when he was a child, he thought that the bigots of which his mother spoke went around dressed in black like 1800s melodrama villains, lampooned in Snidely Whiplash. They had small capes about their shoulders and wore huge black top hats, and probably long noses, pale skin, and the slight French mustache of pure evil. And this book was written 15 years or more before the Babadook.

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Pakuni is based on the very analytic West African Kwa and similar branches of the Niger-Congo Family. It's like a simplified version of them with some words reminiscent of English words or other European languages. It notably dispenses with the tones of the original languages but without altering the language's phonology to realistically compensate for this. We have about 100 words of this language, which I have supplemented with words based on the phonology of the original words, both hand-crafted, computer-generated, and made up off the top of my head.

There's several "pseudo- writing systems" in the Land of the Lost franchise but I haven't made much use of them. One is clearly an alphabet.

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Atlantean is grammatically most like Latin but with Japanese clause order, an Austronesian phonology, and a noun case system like Finnish. Its words are supposedly mostly based on Proto-Indo-European with some based on ancient and modern languages from all over the world. We have about 448 words of this language, which I have supplemented with words based on the phonology of the original words, both hand-crafted, computer-generated, and made up off the top of my head.

The basic concept of the language from the movie is that all languages on Earth came from this language. Which Okrand apparently approached somewhat loosely, as most of the words are based on PIE. I think he either wanted something more useful or thought the language might not take off.

Most intriguing of all, whereas Klingon was supposedly designed to go against all Linguistic Universals, Atlantean was stated as going with them. And instead of sounding gutteral like Klingon, sound mellifluous.

( But I've studied many of these invented languages from famous books, tv, and movies, and most of their scholars and users are also fans of the works: Maybe 5% of total or even far less. Though the news that there's an actual language in the works does seem to reach, on average, 75% of fans, and does seem to be an actual draw for those people and the rest. I would compare it to special effects, which are also demonstrations of cutting-edge scientific and technical know-how. )

I did a large project for it about a year ago. I mostly use the books I have onhand to approximate Okrand's supposed word and grammar invention methods. Though recently I deviated from them to use less PIE and more "earliest civilization languages" that I'd like to study. About a year ago, I computer generated about 200,000 words for Atlantean that anyone can use to invent new Atlantean words whenever they want, in keeping with whatever knowledge they have of multiple ancient and exotic languages. My historical linguistics is not really that good, so I just think of what I know and try to approximate it and use the whole experience to further my scholarship and scholarly skills. Two notable books I've been working away at for these projects are Schuessler's ABC Etymological Dictionary of Old Chinese and The World Lexicon of Grammaticalization.

It has a very nice alphabet whose "visual forms" are mostly based on Phoenician with some references to Elder Futhark Runes, and then in a visual style like Bronze Script Chinese (or is it Large Seal Script Chinese?). Its numerals are like Roman Numerals written using the Mayan numerals. It's notably written boustrophedon: left to right, right to left, then left to right.

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For Pakuni, I chose a series of texts mostly from myths from around the world. I also chose many texts from "The Art of War" in Classical Chinese. We'll see how many I get around to translating, though.

Then I also have been working on making words for a huge number of prehistoric plants and animals from throughout all time.

Posts have a "Land of the Lost" franchise and a modern paleontology art theme.

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For Atlantean, I've selected mostly texts from "The Epic of Son-Jara" from the c 1200s to 1600s West African Empire of Old Mali. Which notably included the famous and proverbial city of Timbuktu! Something which just delights me endlessly due to its occurrence in "I'd Do Anything" from the musical "Oliver!".

I chose it because I own it but have not spent much time with it yet. Also, the fans on the major ATLE facebook group seem mostly American, so I thought it would be a fitting choice. I've also been working on Niger-Congo languages for Pakuni and am stuck with books surveying all African languages from a university library because of the dreadful on-going global coronavirus plague (RIP my inspiring uncle in law, a good facebook friend of mine who was elderly, and another facebook friend of mine's elderly brother). "Alas, poor Yorick! - I knew him well, Horatio."

I also made an "imitation ancient Bantu" conlang and translated the first text into it. Its words are mostly straight Swahili, with often meanings adjusted in an approximation of historic semantic shift, and then with a grammar based on Swahili but also West African Niger-Congo languages, especially Bantu ones. So I looked up some words in Swahili and used them but other words I just found by looking around the dictionary for words of a sufficent possible semantic relation.

Posts have art themes of: "Atlantis The Lost Empire", medieval west African Benin bronzes, ancient art, Bronze Script Chinese inscriptions, and silent film text frames. I always wanted to get more into the Benin bronzes and have seen them all over. I haven't quite done that yet but I've taken a few small steps toward that end. And the season is young.

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Here's my facebook group for the Pakuni language:

The Land of the Lost Language Pakuni by Dr. Victoria Fromkin
https://www.facebook.com/groups/pakuni/

Here's the largest facebook group about Land of the Lost that I also post on:

Land of the Lost 1974-76 TV Series
https://www.facebook.com/groups/120883895197744/


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Here's the largest and oldest facebook group for the Atlantean language. It was previously a Yahoo Group, before 2015 or so.

Atlantis the Lost Empire Atlantean Language by Dr. Marc Okrand
https://www.facebook.com/groups/350664428925254/

Here's the largest group for Atlantis the Lost Empire fans. It's got a very "grown up" concept going on it, though. The last month has seen a lot of the creative team of the movie join the group and post many draft scripts, do posts, and give away signed posters. So the excitement has me inspired.

Atlantis: The Lost Empireposting
https://www.facebook.com/groups/350664428925254/

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Re: Early 2020's Work on Movie and TV Famous Pakuni and Atlantean Conlangs

Post by Bob »

Sorry, I'm re-posting this one for the sake of on-going research into Pakuni. I've saved a copy of everyone's posts and will reply in the next few days. Or try.
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Re: Early 2020's Work on Movie and TV Famous Pakuni and Atlantean Conlangs

Post by Bob »

I've recently done huge translation projects for the Klingon language, too. My texts for that one were more about ancient political drama, oppressive ancient empires, ancient mining, slavery, and ancient geography and anthropology, etc.

Whereas the texts I've selected for Atlantean are far less stressful and more interesting and about social history, wisdom, and just neat stuff. There's also some scary parts, though. I make the texts heavy on myth and have one huge myth type text from the Creek "A New Fire" bilingual anthology (Native American, Muskegon). But it's not like the huge myth text collection I've prepared for Pakuni.

And the Klingon texts contain no myths or anything like that. It's mostly battle slaughter and accounts of the sorts of treasures made from slave labor in mines "far away".

In fact, I recently drew up some plans for a c 1930s America themed conlang based on the drawings of Dr. Seuss in "Horton Hears a Who" and 1930s texts of a (supposedly bizaare and oppressive) factory or mining town owned by newspaper magnet Hearst. But I never did anything more on it. And then maybe some other texts. I was going to focus on making names for fantasy musical instruments, I think.

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Whatever I got down of the above-discussed projects, you can see on websites linked to from my homepage. Search Atlantean or Pakuni and keep going until you find the organized lists of them. I plan to clean up that homepage in the next month or so.
https://anylanguageatall411.blogspot.co ... w=flipcard
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Re: Early 2020's Work on Movie and TV Famous Pakuni and Atlantean Conlangs

Post by Bob »

by Vilike » Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:20 am

I am intrigued, what is that Atlantean word based on a Hmong language?
Bob wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:32 am
Since about New Year's Day, I've had been working on a big series of projects involving the Pakuni or Paku language from the big hit American 1970s kids sci fi tv show "Land of the Lost". I'm the first language scientist to do decipherment work on the language and make it available publically.
I dunno if it was already mentioned in another Pakuni thread, but have you read Alexander's Victoria Fromkin's Reform-Pakuni of 1995?
http://fiatlingua.org/2014/06/
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Re: Early 2020's Work on Movie and TV Famous Pakuni and Atlantean Conlangs

Post by Bob »

Vilike wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:20 am I am intrigued, what is that Atlantean word based on a Hmong language?

I dunno if it was already mentioned in another Pakuni thread, but have you read Alexander's Victoria Fromkin's Reform-Pakuni of 1995?
:) On those lines, actually, you know what?

I'm thinking of making a word for "ivory chopsticks" in Atlantean! The thought occured to me. This is actually a core concept, or a concept tying into a core concept, in Classical Chinese. I may even add the whole Classical Chinese text that I have for it. I think I have two now, an excerpt and then more like the full original text, though not bilingual. Though I already have so much. It could use something actually in Classical Chinese.

We'll see if I get to that.

Anyway, so I did a comparative meal utensil etymology study and worked it into some hand-crafted words for Atlantean food utensils.

I think I always wanted to do a comparative etymology study of utensils.

Though most peoples used their hands, so far as I know, maybe only certain fingers, but still.
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Re: Early 2020's Work on Movie and TV Famous Pakuni and Atlantean Conlangs

Post by Bob »

:) I haven't read any of the newer replies yet! Thanks everyone and I'll try to be more cheerful and gracious in the future.

Prompted by Valkyrie (Vilike), over private message, it occured to me to post links to my works on Pakuni and Atlantean. Please tell me what you think. I've got a lot more coming, especially for Pakuni, but so far it's just discussed a bit on my facebook groups and otherwise not so much online:
Vilike wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:20 am ( This person also wrote me private messages.)
elemtilas wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:15 am ( This person also maybe seems interested in my scholarship, so I will try to tag him. )




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Go to my homepage to see my work on conlangs:

https://anylanguageatall411.blogspot.co ... w=flipcard


Sorry, I did refer to my facebook groups. On my facebook profile, there is a link to my website. I should somehow get that on my new Zompist Bboard file so that the more diligent of the members may easily find it and appreciate all my hard work and fortunate achievements.


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29
Introduction to Pakuni, 9 29 2018
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2018/0 ... w=flipcard

52
Pakuni Grammars based on Fromkin 1974, 1995, and One of Expansions by Me
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2018/1 ... w=flipcard



31
Quick Dictionaries for Pakuni Language
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2018/0 ... w=flipcard

59
Pictures for Dictionaries of Pakuni
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2018/1 ... w=flipcard

53
ROGERS PAKUNI DICTIONARY 200K FOR WREPLACE FREE SOFTWARE V 1
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2018/1 ... w=flipcard


51
Select Pakuni Vocabulary with Discussion
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2018/1 ... w=flipcard


57
New Dinosaur and Stone Age Tool Words for Pakuni Language:
With Modern Art and Stone Age Art
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2018/1 ... w=flipcard


54
Pakuni Text: Prometheus in Hesiod's Theogony with Ancient Greek
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2018/1 ... w=flipcard




46
Guide to Pakuni Corpus 3 22 2014
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2018/1 ... w=flipcard

,, 83 ,, 1970s Kids Show Land of the Lost Language Pakuni is Niger-Kongo Twi Language: A Preview
https://anylanguageatall411.blogspot.co ... w=flipcard

30
Pakuni Corpus 3 22 2014 Part 1, Episodes: Cha-Ka, Sleestak, Dopey, Downstream, Tag Team, Stranger
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2018/0 ... w=flipcard

32
Pakuni Corpus 3 22 2014 Part 2, Episodes: Album, Skylons, Hole, Dinner
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2018/0 ... w=flipcard

33
Pakuni Corpus 3 22 2014 Part 3, Episodes: Search, Possession, Stone Soup, Circle, Tar Pit
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2018/0 ... w=flipcard

34
Pakuni Corpus 3 22 2014 Part 4, Episodes: Zarn, Trade, Plyons, Test, Gravity
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2018/1 ... w=flipcard

35
Pakuni Corpus 3 22 2014 Part 5, Episodes: Longest, Express
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2018/1 ... w=flipcard

36
Pakuni Corpus 3 22 2014 Part 6, Episodes: Nice Day, Baby Sitter, Musician
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2018/1 ... w=flipcard

37
Pakuni Corpus 3 22 2014 Part 7, Episodes: Split, Blackout, Shock, Kit, Orb, Repairman, Medusa, Cornered, Dutchman.
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2018/1 ... w=flipcard

38
Pakuni Corpus 3 22 2014 Part 8, Episodes: Artist, Snow, Time, Guard, Scarab, Man, DONE
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2018/1 ... w=flipcard

47
Images to Accompany Pakunki Corpus 3 22 2014 (Plates)
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2018/1 ... w=flipcard



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2
Okrand's Atlantean: 10.29.2010 Complete Corpus
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... w=flipcard


39
New Quick Atlantean Grammar 10 14 2018
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2018/1 ... w=flipcard

5
Okrand's Atlantean: 9.7.2010 Grammar
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... w=flipcard

7
Okrand's Atlantean: Atlantean Root Etymology
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... w=flipcard


3
Okrand's Atlantean: 9.7.2010 A - E Canonical
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... w=flipcard


4
Okrand's Atlantean: 9.7.2010 E/A - A\ E Canonical Dictionary
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... w=flipcard

26
Okrand's Atlantean: 9.7.2010 E/A - A\ E Canonical Dictionary
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... w=flipcard


6
Okrand's Atlantean: A Reader
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... w=flipcard


8
Okrand's Atlantean: Deciphered Shepherd's Journal
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... w=flipcard



9
Okrand's Atlantean: Deciphering the Shepherd's Journal
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... w=flipcard


10
Okrand's Atlantean: Fanonical Dictionary E to A
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... w=flipcard


11
Okrand's Atlantean: Home / Image / Reader
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... w=flipcard



12
Okrand's Atlantean: Links
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... w=flipcard



13
Okrand's Atlantean: Numbers in Atlantean and New Atlantean
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... w=flipcard



14
Okrand's Atlantean: Old Wikipedia Article
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... w=flipcard

15
Okrand's Atlantean: The Tomb Raider - ATLE Connection
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... w=flipcard



41
Atlantean Translation of 2 James Bateman Stories
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2018/1 ... w=flipcard

42
Study of Subordinate Clause Markers from the Atlantean Corpus
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2018/1 ... w=flipcard

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Any praise, encouragement? I'd like to hear that first. If anyone has any questions, that would be great. I would recommend tempering any criticism with abundant and probably surpassing praise. I am myself quite strict regarding my own unique and pioneering work. I don't join these groups because I'm still an undergrad. I actually do know what I'm doing and would like some recognition of being some 10 to 15 years at all this.
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Re: Early 2020's Work on Movie and TV Famous Pakuni and Atlantean Conlangs

Post by masako »

Bob wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:24 pm If anyone has any questions, that would be great.
Do you have any of your own conlangs?
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Re: Early 2020's Work on Movie and TV Famous Pakuni and Atlantean Conlangs

Post by bradrn »

masako wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:34 pm
Bob wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:24 pm If anyone has any questions, that would be great.
Do you have any of your own conlangs?
Does it matter? Personally I find this sort of analysis of others’ conlangs no less fascinating than a new conlang. (Besides, I’m pretty sure there’s other members here who don’t have their own conlangs.)
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Re: Early 2020's Work on Movie and TV Famous Pakuni and Atlantean Conlangs

Post by Vilike »

bradrn wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:05 am
masako wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:34 pm
Bob wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:24 pm If anyone has any questions, that would be great.
Do you have any of your own conlangs?
Does it matter? Personally I find this sort of analysis of others’ conlangs no less fascinating than a new conlang. (Besides, I’m pretty sure there’s other members here who don’t have their own conlangs.)
Seconded. Sometimes one needs a fresh set of eyes on old material. And if that material happens to be a conlang, well, it has a place on a conlanging board. I remember productive discussions with non-conlangers (mainly auxlang "proselytists", but not always) on the French forums.
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Re: Early 2020's Work on Movie and TV Famous Pakuni and Atlantean Conlangs

Post by elemtilas »

Bob wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:17 pm Sorry, I'm re-posting this one for the sake of on-going research into Pakuni. I've saved a copy of everyone's posts and will reply in the next few days. Or try.
No worries. If the conversation has been moved to this location, perhaps we can just copy our responses over here, so they won't be scattered.

By the by, had a shufty over to Facebook. Some very interesting & instructive conversations going on there.
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Re: Early 2020's Work on Movie and TV Famous Pakuni and Atlantean Conlangs

Post by elemtilas »

masako wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:34 pm
Bob wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:24 pm If anyone has any questions, that would be great.
Do you have any of your own conlangs?
I think it could be (fairly) argued that this Neo-Paku that Larry does his translations into is as much his own invented language as any fan concocted language is. That is, not Paku per se, because any extended vocabulary & grammar are not the work of the original language inventor (or designated heir). It's a kind of fanfic.
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Re: Early 2020's Work on Movie and TV Famous Pakuni and Atlantean Conlangs

Post by Vilike »

elemtilas wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:34 amIt's a kind of fanfic.
Is there a precedent for the word 'fanlang'?
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Re: Early 2020's Work on Movie and TV Famous Pakuni and Atlantean Conlangs

Post by elemtilas »

Vilike wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:22 pm
elemtilas wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:34 amIt's a kind of fanfic.
Is there a precedent for the word 'fanlang'?
Yep! James "Puey" McCleary described the phenomenon over on Conlangery in 2012 and further on Conlang-L in early 2017.
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Re: Early 2020's Work on Movie and TV Famous Pakuni and Atlantean Conlangs

Post by bradrn »

Now that I think about it, I and a couple of other people tried to develop a fanlang based of Pratchett’s Dwarvish (Kad’k) language here a while ago. Unfortunately, the attested samples (collected here) are so clearly underdeveloped that we ended up abandoning the project (although I still think about it occasionally).
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Re: Early 2020's Work on Movie and TV Famous Pakuni and Atlantean Conlangs

Post by Bob »

Replies to replies to this thread:

masako

Yeah, I post about them here sometimes and then others I make webpages for. You can find them on my website, the links are all organized at the bottom. It's preceded by like a journal of scholarship which I mean to move in the next week or so.

https://anylanguageatall411.blogspot.co ... w=flipcard

elemtilas

Fanfic? No, there's a grammar and dicionary by Fromkin but it says it's copyrighted by her and I think I was told we fans could only share it amongst ourselves.

So if anyone wants a copy, they can ask me.

The core of the grammar and plant of the language was made by her, but only a mere 100 words.

bradrn :

You should finish it sometime. I always push myself to work on Atlantean, it interests me so very very little. It's very similar to Latin and I can read Latin very well. It makes me want to vomit.
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Re: Early 2020's Work on Movie and TV Famous Pakuni and Atlantean Conlangs

Post by elemtilas »

Bob wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:10 am elemtilas

Fanfic? No, there's a grammar and dictionary by Fromkin but it says it's copyrighted by her and I think I was told we fans could only share it amongst ourselves.

So if anyone wants a copy, they can ask me.

The core of the grammar and plant of the language was made by her, but only a mere 100 words.
Fanlang, actually. That would be your own work, Neo-Paku: the expansions & extensions added onto Fromkin's work.

The language itself can not be (c), so most likely what is (c) is her particular presentation of the language. She died 20 years ago, so no one is hounour bound to keep it a secret among fans. She holds a place of honour in language invention history, and her work, however much or little there is, ought to be archived for the community to see and study. You're in the perfect position to do something great with that work. You are one of perhaps three people in the entire world that are passionate about Paku. As your work on Neo-Paku demonstrates. Do something useful for the entire community with that passion!

I admit to a certain morbid curiosity regarding her work, and wouldn't mind seeing it. I would just arrange it, pdf it and put it on FrathWiki. I was rather hoping that, along with whatever other additions you make to the language, somewhere along the way you would have done some kind of scholarly research on Fromkin's work. That's what I'd really like to see put up at Frath.
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Re: Early 2020's Work on Movie and TV Famous Pakuni and Atlantean Conlangs

Post by Bob »

elemtilas wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:30 pm ...
Yeah, I'll private message you here on the Zompist website. I'll get you a copy.
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