Zompist Bboard Again

By year’s end, I’d like to publish a revised and expanded edition of the Index. On Reddit, /u/SquiDark was kind enough to prepare a laundry list of errata, which I hope to incorporate. My goals include the following:

- Correct the errors and typos—except for the word “changeling” in the changelog, which is really funny to me
- Make the notation more consistent
- Get rid of the Altaic and Elamo-Dravidian sections because I’m older and wiser now (at least I hope so)
- Make the document Unicode-compliant
- Add new material (I have a considerable backlog of historical phonology sources that I’ve been meaning to incorporate, but lacked the drive/energy/time)

To that end, I would like to solicit help. The Index is well over 300 pages deep and fixing it all myself would be a tall order, what with my work and medical obligations.

Also, if you have any lists of sound changes that aren’t yet represented in the document, I invite you to post them here (properly cited, of course).

Oh, yes please! I use the Index Diachronica all the time, but it’s definitely not the most reliable of things. /u/SquiDark’s contributions are helpful, but are a little difficult to follow, and not nearly as user-friendly as the original. I’d really appreciate an updated version!

Unfortunately I can’t help much with the actual sound changes, not knowing too much about the subject myself, but here are some articles which may or may not be useful:

Blust, R., 2007. Disyllabic attractors and anti-antigemination in Austronesian sound change*. Phonology 24, 1–36. https://doi.org/10.1017/S0952675707001108
Blust, R., 2001. Some Remarks on Stress, Syncope, and Gemination in Mussau. Oceanic Linguistics 40, 143–150. https://doi.org/10.2307/3623268
Boer, E.M. de, n.d. The historical development of Japanese tone Part 1: From proto-Japanese to the modern dialects Part 2: The introduction and adaptation of the Middle Chinese tones in Japan.
Boer, E.M. de, n.d. Universals of tone rules and diachronic change in Japanese.
Chafe, W.L., 1968. The Ordering of Phonological Rules. International Journal of American Linguistics 34, 115–136. https://doi.org/10.1086/465004
Hinton, L., 1991. Takic and Yuman: A Study in Phonological Convergence. International Journal of American Linguistics 57, 133–157.
Hyman, L.M., n.d. Enlarging the scope of phonologization 26.
Koch, J.T., 1987. Prosody and the Old Celtic Verbal Complex. Ériu 38, 143–176.
Mamet, I., 2011. Cupeño Stress Shift: Diachronic Perspectives. International Journal of American Linguistics 77, 247–283. https://doi.org/10.1086/659737
Miller, A.L., 2019. Palatal click allophony in Mangetti Dune !Xung: Implications for sound change. Journal of the International Phonetic Association 49, 153–181. https://doi.org/10.1017/S0025100317000305
Nikulin, A., 2018. A phonological reconstruction of Proto-Cerrado (Jê family). Journal of Language Relationship 15, 147–180. https://doi.org/10.31826/jlr-2018-153-404
Towards a reconstruction and reclassification of the Lakes Plain languages of Irian Jaya [WWW Document], 2013. . SIL International. URL https://www.sil.org/resources/archives/37420 (accessed 3.10.21).
Yu, A.C.L., 2004. Infixing with a Vengeance: Pingding Mandarin Infixation. Journal of East Asian Linguistics 13, 39–58.

Perhaps at some point I can try to go through and transcribe some of the sound changes from these.

This is great news, and a valuable and appreciated effort! Thank you in advance!

I don't have material to add, unfortunately, but I would second the plan to delete the Altaic sections. Starostin et al.'s reconstructions are... well, better done without, let's say.

at some point I should compile lists of sound changes for Sino-Tibetan (and probably Nivkh to the extent that that's possible)

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:11 am (and probably Nivkh to the extent that that's possible)

Relatedly, does anyone know the state of Dené–Yeniseian? From what I’ve heard it sounds like one of the better-accepted ‘macrofamilies’, but I don’t know how comprehensive the reconstruction is yet. Also we should consider Austro–Tai, though it sounds like there’s more disagreement on that one — even those who accept it disagree on whether Kra–Dai is a sister or a daughter of Austronesian. Perhaps an updated Index should give multiple competing sound changes for the same family?

Man in Space wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:27 pm To that end, I would like to solicit help. The Index is well over 300 pages deep and fixing it all myself would be a tall order, what with my work and medical obligations.

How can I help?

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:26 am

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:11 am (and probably Nivkh to the extent that that's possible)

Relatedly, does anyone know the state of Dené–Yeniseian? From what I’ve heard it sounds like one of the better-accepted ‘macrofamilies’, but I don’t know how comprehensive the reconstruction is yet. Also we should consider Austro–Tai, though it sounds like there’s more disagreement on that one — even those who accept it disagree on whether Kra–Dai is a sister or a daughter of Austronesian. Perhaps an updated Index should give multiple competing sound changes for the same family?

I remember checking "The Dene-Yeniseian Connection" out from my school's library a few years back and being really confused why the theory was getting so much traction. It's been a while since I looked at it, but I don't remember there being very many cognate sets presented, and many that were included seemed semantically or phonologically dubious. I don't think there's even a comprehensive reconstruction of Proto-Na-Dene yet, let alone Proto-Dene-Yeniseian.

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:11 am at some point I should compile lists of sound changes for Sino-Tibetan (and probably Nivkh to the extent that that's possible)

That would be both awesome and welcomed.

Raholeun wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:47 am

Man in Space wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:27 pm To that end, I would like to solicit help. The Index is well over 300 pages deep and fixing it all myself would be a tall order, what with my work and medical obligations.

How can I help?

How proficient are you with (La)TeX?

Skookum wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:36 amI remember checking "The Dene-Yeniseian Connection" out from my school's library a few years back and being really confused why the theory was getting so much traction. It's been a while since I looked at it, but I don't remember there being very many cognate sets presented, and many that were included seemed semantically or phonologically dubious. I don't think there's even a comprehensive reconstruction of Proto-Na-Dene yet, let alone Proto-Dene-Yeniseian.

I actually own a copy of the collection of papers, which includes correspondence sets. (I acquired it with the aim of adding to the Index, actually.)

Man in Space wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:44 am

Raholeun wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:47 am

Man in Space wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:27 pm To that end, I would like to solicit help. The Index is well over 300 pages deep and fixing it all myself would be a tall order, what with my work and medical obligations.

How can I help?

How proficient are you with (La)TeX?

I use it for pretty much all my documents, including conlang grammars, so I’d be happy to help with the typesetting. But I’ve been thinking that a web-based version would be much nicer — I really like how chridd’s Online Index lets you search for a specific phoneme. I’m also happy to help with that if that’s the pathway you want to go down, though I must admit that web development isn’t my specialty.

What would the ideal web interface be like? Are there any similar datasets with good web interfaces? (Or any web interfaces at all?)

To what extent would it be possible to standardize the data for better search? Has anyone figured out a computer-parseable representation of the environment of a sound change? I think PBase tries to do that.

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:32 pm What would the ideal web interface be like? Are there any similar datasets with good web interfaces? (Or any web interfaces at all?)

It doesn’t need anything fancy. I’d say that chridd’s Online Index has a pretty ideal interface: a table where you can select phones to search for, plus a list of all sound changes. Search results are sorted by whether the selected phone is in the target, replacement or environment, and let you narrow results down to specific secondary articulations.

To what extent would it be possible to standardize the data for better search? Has anyone figured out a computer-parseable representation of the environment of a sound change? I think there was a project that tried - at some French university, maybe - but I forget the name.

My SCA (which should be released in just a few days…) works off a data structure which represents a phonological rule. It’s not universal by any stretch — it can’t even represent syllable boundaries! — but it’s something we could build on if necessary.

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:39 pm

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:32 pm What would the ideal web interface be like? Are there any similar datasets with good web interfaces? (Or any web interfaces at all?)

It doesn’t need anything fancy. I’d say that chridd’s Online Index has a pretty ideal interface: a table where you can select phones to search for, plus a list of all sound changes. Search results are sorted by whether the selected phone is in the target, replacement or environment, and let you narrow results down to specific secondary articulations.

Not being able to search for X > Y is a little annoying, though.

My SCA (which should be released in just a few days…) works off a data structure which represents a phonological rule. It’s not universal by any stretch — it can’t even represent syllable boundaries! — but it’s something we could build on if necessary.

I think it'd need to be able to represent syllable boundaries and suprasegmentals.

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:49 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:39 pm

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:32 pm What would the ideal web interface be like? Are there any similar datasets with good web interfaces? (Or any web interfaces at all?)

It doesn’t need anything fancy. I’d say that chridd’s Online Index has a pretty ideal interface: a table where you can select phones to search for, plus a list of all sound changes. Search results are sorted by whether the selected phone is in the target, replacement or environment, and let you narrow results down to specific secondary articulations.

Not being able to search for X > Y is a little annoying, though.

This is true. On the other hand, I’ve personally never needed to search for such a thing. I suppose that you could solve this by just adding regex search.

My SCA (which should be released in just a few days…) works off a data structure which represents a phonological rule. It’s not universal by any stretch — it can’t even represent syllable boundaries! — but it’s something we could build on if necessary.

I think it'd need to be able to represent syllable boundaries and suprasegmentals.

Syllable boundaries and suprasegmentals are tricky. My current implementation can simulate suprasegmentals via diacritic features (if that’s the right word for what I’ve done), but ‘truly’ representing those things can become difficult. (EDIT Though not impossible — I previously managed it by adding a separate token type for syllable boundaries, then associating each syllable boundary with a list of suprasegmentals. It nearly worked too, except it turned out that such rules are impossible to apply, which is after all the point of a Sound Change Applier.)

One thing I’ve found, however, is that very few sound changes ‘truly’ need these things — most if not all can be rewritten without them. e.g. a vowel shift in stressed syllables can be simulated by treating stressed and unstressed vowels as separate phones: something like ‘a → æ / when stressed’ can be rewritten as ‘stressed a → stressed æ’. (This is what my SCA does.) Similarly, sound changes requiring syllabification can often be rewritten using a more complex environment. In fact, I’d be curious to know whether there are any sound changes at all which genuinely require reference to syllable boundaries or suprasegmentals, and cannot be reformulated using these techniques.

Man in Space wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:44 am

Raholeun wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:47 am

Man in Space wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:27 pm To that end, I would like to solicit help. The Index is well over 300 pages deep and fixing it all myself would be a tall order, what with my work and medical obligations.

How can I help?

How proficient are you with (La)TeX?

I will send you a PM.

Are there any updates on this project? I’d still like to get involved if possible.

A year on, I’ve been thinking about this again. Is anyone else still at all interested in a new Index Diachronica? I know I’d still like to do something with this.

While I’m thinking about the topic, a while back I discovered that some other attempts at sound change databases have been made. Some links:

https://pbase.phon.chass.ncsu.edu — PBase project
www.diadm.ddl.cnrs.fr — DiaDM project
https://opencuny.org/laurenspradlin/fil ... poster.pdf — Toward Building a More Comprehensive Sound Change Database (poster, Spradlin 2017)

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:00 am A year on, I’ve been thinking about this again.

Much like how a better WALS would include examples, detail and argumentation for classifying a given language in a feature, a better Index Diachronica would include examples, citations, details and probably argumentation for individual sound changes.

It's near certainly the kind of thing that'd require financial support to carry it out rather than a one-man or community project, unless somehow they were very dedicated, but I sure dream of it.

I'm very interested in both a newer Index Diachronica and - if only! - a newer WALS.

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Mon Aug 29, 2022 2:14 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:00 am A year on, I’ve been thinking about this again.

Much like how a better WALS would include examples, detail and argumentation for classifying a given language in a feature, a better Index Diachronica would include examples, citations, details and probably argumentation for individual sound changes.

Citations and details, yes, and perhaps even examples if there are any, but I think argumentation and justification would have to be out of scope for a sound change database. (Anyway, how could you even justify an individual sound change sensibly without including masses of words?)

It's near certainly the kind of thing that'd require financial support to carry it out rather than a one-man or community project, unless somehow they were very dedicated, but I sure dream of it.

I disagree… community projects have achieved some pretty impressive things. (And even one-man projects have done some pretty impressive stuff.)

Zju wrote: ↑Mon Aug 29, 2022 2:49 pm I'm very interested in both a newer Index Diachronica and - if only! - a newer WALS.

WALS is the responsibility of the good people at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, so I’m afraid you’d have to talk to them for an updated version.

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:00 am A year on, I’ve been thinking about this again. Is anyone else still at all interested in a new Index Diachronica? I know I’d still like to do something with this.

While I’m thinking about the topic, a while back I discovered that some other attempts at sound change databases have been made. Some links:

https://pbase.phon.chass.ncsu.edu — PBase project
www.diadm.ddl.cnrs.fr — DiaDM project
https://opencuny.org/laurenspradlin/fil ... poster.pdf — Toward Building a More Comprehensive Sound Change Database (poster, Spradlin 2017)

Yep.
The current software is IMO pretty serviceable; the lists of sound change themselves have problems, but that's to be expected from the work of amateur enthusiasts.
What I'd be interested in would be a way to edit the sound changes in a reasonably easy fashion. (I think I could improve the lists for a few languages here and there myself.)