Zompist Bboard Again

Maybe because they're taught that German ö sounds like <er> (I have seen some teaching materials that have used an approach like this, presumably intended for British learners, and been confused by this myself before).

In some English accents that's the closest approximation to the German ö sound, so it's really not that weird.

Dē Graut Bʉr wrote: ↑Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:01 pm In some English accents that's the closest approximation to the German ö sound, so it's really not that weird.

Indeed. In most non-rhotic accents the NURSE vowel is going to be perceived as closest to the German [øː]; in some it is actually frontish and fairly rounded, and even where it isn't the effects of rounding and backing on the second formant are similar, so [œː] and [ɜː] sound quite similar.

As for rhotic American English, one explanation might be that the pronunciation with the NURSE vowel is being generalised from non-rhotic accents. But another explanation is that actually the American [ɚː] is also perceived as being the closest native approximation to German [øː], in spite of its rhotic quality. American names of German origin such as Boehner tend not to have that vowel AIUI, but I think I've seen that explained as being because the pronunciation comes from accents of German which don't have front rounded vowels.

Americanized pronunciations of European surnames are in their own class, I think. The longer the family has lived in the USA the more likely they are to have settled on a pronunciation that flows smoothly with other English words. Polish and Italian surnames especially are likely to have a wrong-on-purpose pronunciation and the people will correct you if you try to say it right.

Italian American idiosyncrasies include silent final e, always pronouncing the g, adding an extra syllable in cia/cio,and /i/ for unstressed and sometimes even stressed e.

Polish, well .... It's complicated, just ask how you say it and accept it. Wojciechowicz is my personal favorite.

As for German, consider the 2 pronunciations of Mueller.

Raholeun wrote: ↑Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:37 am Apparently anglophones pronounce "Goethe" with a rhotacized vowel, sometimes two. Why?

Because to many rhotic Anglophones, Standard German /œ øː/ sound something like their native /ɝ/ or /ɚ/. However, here in southeastern Wisconsin the traditional pronunciation of StG /œ øː/ in names is /ɛ eɪ/, that is, [ɜ e]. (This is apparently because in German varieties spoken by many Americans, rounded front vowels were lost before the German varieties themselves became extinct, or had actually come from Europe without having rounded front vowels in the first place.)

Raholeun wrote: ↑Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:37 amApparently anglophones pronounce "Goethe" with a rhotacized vowel, sometimes two. Why?

Somewhat ironically, Goethe himself spoke an unrounded variety.

This name is notorious in Chicago because of the eponymous street in the Near North Side. Local folklore describes a trisyllabic pronunciation (/gow'iyθiy/, but I've never heard that in the field, only /'gowθiy/.

I should note that it is traditional to pronounce StG final /ə/ in names as /i/ here (but word-internal StG /ə/ stays as /ə/).

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:01 pm I think ore oar or awe are homophones in most accents of England and New Zealand, and in pretty much all accents of Australia. Also for non-rhotic New Yorkers.

I can confirm for New Zealand English, all are [oː] (or [oːɻ] before vowels, including awe).

Dē Graut Bʉr wrote: ↑Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:01 pm In some English accents that's the closest approximation to the German ö sound, so it's really not that weird.

I have [ˈgɵːtʰə] with the NURSE vowel, so not too far off. Weirdly, I don't flap the t though.

I've heard a number of pronunciations for <oe> in German-derived names here in the States: /ɚ/ (Goethe, Goebbels), /ei/ (Boehner), /ɛ/ (a friend whose surname is Boecke, which she pronounces homophonous with Becky), and a spelling pronunciation of /ou/.

Zaarin wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:04 pm I've heard a number of pronunciations for <oe> in German-derived names here in the States: /ɚ/ (Goethe, Goebbels), /ei/ (Boehner), /ɛ/ (a friend whose surname is Boecke, which she pronounces homophonous with Becky), and a spelling pronunciation of /ou/.

I would guess that the vowel in Boecke is different from the vowel in Boehner even in German. (I'm not 100% sure because long vowels can have weird spellings in German sometimes, especially in names, but usually a vowel before -ck- is "short", so I'd expect Boecke to have /œ/ instead of /øː/.)

schedule = /ˈskɛdʒəl~ˈskɛdʒʊl/ for me, nothing unusual I think for an American English speaker. I don't know the exact phonetics of /əl/ for me; it sounds indistinguishable from /ʊl/, and might be realized as something like [ɫ̩].

schedule: [ˈskɜːtɕuːwʊ(ː)]

schedule [ˈskɛʤjʊɫ] ([ˈskɛʤjuɫ] in careful speech)

Estav wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:29 am

Zaarin wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:04 pm I've heard a number of pronunciations for <oe> in German-derived names here in the States: /ɚ/ (Goethe, Goebbels), /ei/ (Boehner), /ɛ/ (a friend whose surname is Boecke, which she pronounces homophonous with Becky), and a spelling pronunciation of /ou/.

I would guess that the vowel in Boecke is different from the vowel in Boehner even in German. (I'm not 100% sure because long vowels can have weird spellings in German sometimes, especially in names

Examples? I can't think of any instance of a long vowel before ck, even in names.

People seem uncertain about the pronunciation of Mueller. The Special Counsel says it with /ə/ but I've heard a lot of folks using a spelling pronunciation with /yuw/. In Standard German it is /ʏ/, which you'd expect to yield a Midwestern pronunciation of /ih/ parallel to /eh/ for /œ/, but that would imply a spelling Miller and I think most speakers feel there needs to be a distinctive pronunciation to match the distinctiveness of the spelling.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:59 am

Estav wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:29 am

Zaarin wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:04 pm I've heard a number of pronunciations for <oe> in German-derived names here in the States: /ɚ/ (Goethe, Goebbels), /ei/ (Boehner), /ɛ/ (a friend whose surname is Boecke, which she pronounces homophonous with Becky), and a spelling pronunciation of /ou/.

I would guess that the vowel in Boecke is different from the vowel in Boehner even in German. (I'm not 100% sure because long vowels can have weird spellings in German sometimes, especially in names

Examples? I can't think of any instance of a long vowel before ck, even in names.

People seem uncertain about the pronunciation of Mueller. The Special Counsel says it with /ə/ but I've heard a lot of folks using a spelling pronunciation with /yuw/. In Standard German it is /ʏ/, which you'd expect to yield a Midwestern pronunciation of /ih/ parallel to /eh/ for /œ/, but that would imply a spelling Miller and I think most speakers feel there needs to be a distinctive pronunciation to match the distinctiveness of the spelling.

The traditional pronunciation of Mueller here is with /ɪ/, so as to be homophonous with Miller; however, it seems most younger people have the spelling pronunciation of /ju/ for it.

For schedule I think I usually have /ˈʃɛdjuːl/ (with /dj/ realised as usual for me as an apical postalveolar affricate) but I can also make it /ˈʃɛdʒəl/.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:59 am People seem uncertain about the pronunciation of Mueller. The Special Counsel says it with /ə/ but I've heard a lot of folks using a spelling pronunciation with /yuw/. In Standard German it is /ʏ/, which you'd expect to yield a Midwestern pronunciation of /ih/ parallel to /eh/ for /œ/, but that would imply a spelling Miller and I think most speakers feel there needs to be a distinctive pronunciation to match the distinctiveness of the spelling.

It usually gets /ʊ/ in British English, I think.

I wonder how common trisyllabic realizations of schedule are; it is normally trisyllabic here, reflecting /ˈskɛdʒuəl/, but I have no clue how the trisyllabic pronunciation came to be (especially since /u/ normally does not undergo breaking before coda /l/ here). I am almost thinking that this could be a case of dialect borrowing from a variety with breaking before coda /l/.

starting to (when pronounced like a single word)

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:07 pm starting to (when pronounced like a single word)

[ˈstɜɚ̯ɾiŋ tɯ]

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:59 am

Estav wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:29 am long vowels can have weird spellings in German sometimes, especially in names

Examples? I can't think of any instance of a long vowel before ck, even in names.

According to the slide show "Variation of vowel length in German", by Stefan Tröster-Mutz (June 18, 2011), the second syllable of the city-name "Lübeck" can, or at least once could, have a long vowel. The slide ("Compounds") says that "The <c> in Lübeck was understood as lengthening-sign, but now the pronunciation is rather with short vowel". Wiktionary lists two pronunciations: "/ˈlyːbɛk/" and "/ˈlyːbeːk/ (dated)". So maybe it's only a historical example. It looks like "Mecklenburg" may be a current example, though.

Edit: I found a reddit commenter who says that the idea that "ck" was ever understood as indicating vowel length is incorrect. Rather than that being the case, it may just be a variant spelling of /k/. I would guess that it might be because word-final /k/ (as in, not hardened /g/) mostly doesn't exist after long vowels in "standard" High German.

starting to is something like [ˈstɑɹɾɪŋtə], [ˈstɑɹɾɪŋdə], [ˈstɑɹɾɪŋə] or [ˈstɑɹɾɪnə] for me. The [ə] in "to" sounds pretty much like /ʊ/ to me. I don't know whether I use [nd] or [nt] pronunciations often.