United States Politics Thread 46

[jcb]

Yes, definitely. I'm always a little surprised to find Americans agreeing with me on politics, and a fair amount of them being to my left. That just never happened 20 years ago.

Surely, the growing enshittification of living in America over the past 20 years has partially caused this. It's easy to have a positive view of Capitalism despite the rich still getting the most of everything when you have still a steady job, health insurance, and a house, but it's much harder to believe this when you have a zero hours guaranteed (and zero benefits) job delivering food for an app, and the only houses getting built in your city are 500,000$ mcmansions. (And housing in my city is cheap compared to others.)

And then, as cherries on top, the media tells you (1) that it's your fault, because you ate too many avocados (and if you try to save money by cutting back on buying x, you're just "killing the x industry" which is just as bad), (2) buying crypto will fix this, and (3) just forget about your shitty life by vicariously watching Israel bomb Palestine!

At least people can now watch 4K video on their phone while on the toilet, I guess.

[Nortaneous]

Whatever happened to libertarians anyway? There used to be a lot of them, especially online, but they all seemed to have switched to more traditional views.

What I saw was that the period when everyone was some kind of libertarian was followed by the period when everyone recommended How Asia Works, which in turn led to the present, where everyone complains about the need for a muscular industrial policy. But that's a specific value of "everyone", eliding, for example, petty local barons below the income threshold where taxes become fake, who are now Trumpists; people displeased with the general tenor of postwar social policy, who split into America Firsters and Heritage Foundation theocracy ghouls depending on whether they think of America as a white country or a Christian one; and DC think tank Koch courtiers, who collapsed in infighting, gave up on the libertarian brand, and are most directly succeeded by Cato Institute open-borders cranks.

[jcb]

So, what happens if Trump is both found guilty of something in one of his four trials and imprisoned, *and* is elected president in November? There's nothing in the constitution preventing a criminal from being president, so I guess he gets to be president from a prison cell? If so, does the secret service protect him while he's in prison? Can he commute/pardon his own sentence to get himself out of prison? If he commutes/pardons his federal sentence, does he immediately get forcibly transferred to a Georgian state prison? (because he can't commute/pardon the Georgian state sentence). Does none of this matter because he'll just declare himself godking and start The Storm and assassinate all of his enemies?

[MacAnDàil]

Are Americans that interested in socialism?

No. Socialism, like welfare, is when you take money from the old and the rich to give it to the young and the poor, which is a ghastly inversion of the true purpose of government: taking money from the young and the poor to give it to the old and the rich.

I got a check in the mail from the governor but it's a special tax rebate so it's fine! The important thing is that I make good money but the government gives me more money anyway. If they didn't give me money, it'd seem like they don't value me as a client, and I'd be insulted and vote for the other guy. It's the American way.

Why did you say that would be the true prupose of government? Is the position of citizen really similar to that of client?

[MacAnDàil]

The Democratic Party is run by crypt-keepers (Pelosi), cops (Harris), and cowards (Pelosi and Harris). As far as their West-Wing-soaked brains are concerned, Biden is doing a great job. If Trump wins again, they'll be the last ones to see it coming.

If Trump wins again, it'll be like the first time: because of Trump and hsi voters themselves primarily, the electoral college, useless third party candidates and non voters acting as if Biden and Trump are equivalent. Don't know le mieux est l'ennemi du bien ?

[Nortaneous]

Are Americans that interested in socialism?

No. Socialism, like welfare, is when you take money from the old and the rich to give it to the young and the poor, which is a ghastly inversion of the true purpose of government: taking money from the young and the poor to give it to the old and the rich.

I got a check in the mail from the governor but it's a special tax rebate so it's fine! The important thing is that I make good money but the government gives me more money anyway. If they didn't give me money, it'd seem like they don't value me as a client, and I'd be insulted and vote for the other guy. It's the American way.

Why did you say that would be the true prupose of government? Is the position of citizen really similar to that of client?

The position of citizen is whatever the voters say it is. Who votes?

[Travis B.]

Anyone who believes that Trump and Biden are equivalent (or who considers not voting for Biden over Gaza) deserves the coming Trump dictatorship that will result from their stupidity.

[masako]

Anyone who believes that Trump and Biden are equivalent (or who considers not voting for Biden over Gaza) deserves the coming Trump dictatorship that will result from their stupidity.

Another scenario - one that seems increasingly plausible given SCOTUS's recent shenanigans - is that Trump skates on the most serious charges and only gets convicted for the election interference, resulting in no jail time, and leaving him eligible to run. But he loses on NOV 5th. His presence will be still felt for at least the next 4 years, and his supporters will likely mount multiple violent protests that will only serve his narrative.

What I'm saying, without really saying it, is that until the hamburger from heaven makes an appearance, the US is probably just stuck with this buffoon.

[Moose-tache]

If you don't agree to getting punched with my left hand, it's your fault when I punch you with my right. Why is not getting punched off the table? Because fuck you, that's why!

[Travis B.]

If you don't agree to getting punched with my left hand, it's your fault when I punch you with my right. Why is not getting punched off the table? Because fuck you, that's why!

Ideas of false equivalence like this are why Trump will become God Emperor of America, because people like you won't vote while the fascists will.

[alice]

Here's an exwercise for anyone who thinks Biden and Trump are for all practical purposes indistinguishable:

Make a list of:

- 10 important things which would be more or less the same regardless of which one becomes President
- 10 important things which would be substantially different depending on which one becomes President

and explain why none of them actually matter.

[masako]

If you don't agree to getting punched with my left hand, it's your fault when I punch you with my right. Why is not getting punched off the table? Because fuck you, that's why!

Ideas of false equivalence like this are why Trump will become God Emperor of America, because people like you won't vote while the fascists will.

I do agree with your premise, but the courts are what is handing us this situation right now. We're in "the legal phase" of this fascistic takeover.

[Moose-tache]

I'm sure the fascists will vote. They get two options to choose from.

[masako]

I'm sure the fascists will vote. They get two options to choose from.

Your civics class should have made it clear to you that there will always be at least two options. But here's a little insight into why you're just raging at clouds:

"Although the Constitution doesn’t make any rules about political parties, US government has a two-party system in which candidates from the two major political parties win nearly all elected offices. Many third parties have emerged over time, but two major barriers have prevented third parties from electing many candidates. First, most US elections operate by the winner-take-all system, which awards seats only to the candidate or party who wins the most votes in an election; independent or third-party candidates, who have neither the name recognition nor the organizational support provided by the major parties, rarely win the majority of votes. Second, the two major parties frequently incorporate the platforms of third parties into their own platforms; voters who identified with a third-party issue will often vote for a major party candidate who has adopted that issue because major parties are more likely to succeed."

from: https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/ ... y-politics

By all means though, keep raging.

[Nortaneous]

I'm sure the fascists will vote. They get two options to choose from.

One option comes with Grand Vizier Jared Kushner and the integralist former president of Wyoming Catholic College as chief sycophant. The other doesn't.

[MacAnDàil]

No. Socialism, like welfare, is when you take money from the old and the rich to give it to the young and the poor, which is a ghastly inversion of the true purpose of government: taking money from the young and the poor to give it to the old and the rich.

I got a check in the mail from the governor but it's a special tax rebate so it's fine! The important thing is that I make good money but the government gives me more money anyway. If they didn't give me money, it'd seem like they don't value me as a client, and I'd be insulted and vote for the other guy. It's the American way.

Why did you say that would be the true prupose of government? Is the position of citizen really similar to that of client?

The position of citizen is whatever the voters say it is. Who votes?

Any citizen may vote. There is often a slight tendency in favour of old and rich people voting but that is no less a reason to favour them than it is to favour, say, Colorado over Oklahoma or women over men https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_tur ... _elections

In any case, social security does not take from the old to give to the young, notably retirement. I argue that a good role of a state: improves the conditions of the citizens and inhabitants, notably the most vulnerable, while encouraging virtue i.e. positive behaviour and discouraging vice i.e. negative behaviour and maintaining a balance between freedom and order.

[Travis B.]

Moose-tache, did you fail your high school civics class?

[Ares Land]

Both the US two-party system and the presidential system have their issues. I think parliamentary systems are the way to go, especially with some kind of proportional representation worked in.

I still think my earlier point stands though -- no matter what system you use, if voters aren't interested in socialism, you won't get socialism. And if a sizeable proportion of voters are fascists, chances are you'll get fascism.

One thing I definitely noticed here in Europe is that the far-right propaganda machine is encouraging left-wingers to skip the elections. Is the Trumpian/Republican machine pushing the same idea? It seems like the smart thing to do for them.

[Nortaneous]

In any case, social security does not take from the old to give to the young, notably retirement. I argue that a good role of a state: improves the conditions of the citizens and inhabitants, notably the most vulnerable, while encouraging virtue i.e. positive behaviour and discouraging vice i.e. negative behaviour and maintaining a balance between freedom and order.

Social security takes from the young, who mostly don't believe it'll be solvent when they're old, to give to the old, many of whom are members of the AARP, which is a lobbying organization that is good at its job. (See also: the NRA.) Also, the young get to pay upwards of $2000/mo for a one-bedroom apartment because building more housing might lower the property values of the people who bought houses when they were cheap - but it's fine because, anyway, cities encourage vice. Urban youths, you know? We need to do something about the urban youths. We need to get their noses to the grindstone so our lines go up faster and we can play more golf in Florida. Not to mention immigration - the only time in my adult life that I've had neighbors who spoke fluent English was when I moved to the country to wait out the plague and lived down the street from a horse farm, but that's what it takes to keep the pyramid schemes solvent for the over-65s without leaving the under-40s enough time, money, or energy to have kids of their own. The youths can't be trusted with freedom, you know. They don't have the wisdom that comes with age. They'd probably all blow it on video games, or gang crime, or something.

[Ares Land]

Social security takes from the young, who mostly don't believe it'll be solvent when they're old, to give to the old, many of whom are members of the AARP, which is a lobbying organization that is good at its job.

We hear that a lot from young or young-ish conservatives here over pensions. The belief that the pension system is going to be insolvent is prevalent but I'm not sure how well founded it is. But the real question is, what's the plan? How are old folks supposed to, y'know, eat? Is everybody super enthused at the idea of taking Grandma in?