On this point, it’s well worth reading Oxford’s Algonquian Grammar Myths (of which this is one).
Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
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Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
More reading Thank you everyone.bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2024 11:18 pmOn this point, it’s well worth reading Oxford’s Algonquian Grammar Myths (of which this is one).
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
A girl at a local coffee shop couldn't understand my pronunciation of "Arnold Palmer" (I was ordering the drink of the same name) with me repeating it more and more carefully until I pronounced it very slowly carefully and added "like the golfer". Seriously, what part of [ˌɑ̃ːʁ̃ˤɯːp̚ˈpʰɑːmʁ̩ˤ(ː)] is hard to understand?
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Well, I suspect I’d hear that first name as something like ‘Arle’, given your pronunciation… though if it’s on a menu, I think I’d figure it out. (Never heard of the drink nor the golfer.)Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:37 am A girl at a local coffee shop couldn't understand my pronunciation of "Arnold Palmer" (I was ordering the drink of the same name) with me repeating it more and more carefully until I pronounced it very slowly carefully and added "like the golfer". Seriously, what part of [ˌɑ̃ːʁ̃ˤɯːp̚ˈpʰɑːmʁ̩ˤ(ː)] is hard to understand?
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Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
The way you spelled that makes me think [ˌɑːʁˤɡuʔpˈpʰãːmʁ̩ˤːk].
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
I don't think it was on the menu at the drive-through.bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 4:04 pmWell, I suspect I’d hear that first name as something like ‘Arle’, given your pronunciation… though if it’s on a menu, I think I’d figure it out. (Never heard of the drink nor the golfer.)Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:37 am A girl at a local coffee shop couldn't understand my pronunciation of "Arnold Palmer" (I was ordering the drink of the same name) with me repeating it more and more carefully until I pronounced it very slowly carefully and added "like the golfer". Seriously, what part of [ˌɑ̃ːʁ̃ˤɯːp̚ˈpʰɑːmʁ̩ˤ(ː)] is hard to understand?
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Travis has a rhotic dialect where the rhotics are uvular approximants. (Or so he claims, though it’s not implausible.)
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Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
/pɑmər/? I've only ever heard /pɔlmər/.
Duaj teibohnggoe kyoe' quaqtoeq lucj lhaj k'yoejdej noeyn tucj.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
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Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
I expect you're joking about being surprised... but I'd guess the problem here is the lack of [n]. She might have accepted "Arno Pama" but "Arro" threw her.Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:37 am A girl at a local coffee shop couldn't understand my pronunciation of "Arnold Palmer" (I was ordering the drink of the same name) with me repeating it more and more carefully until I pronounced it very slowly carefully and added "like the golfer". Seriously, what part of [ˌɑ̃ːʁ̃ˤɯːp̚ˈpʰɑːmʁ̩ˤ(ː)] is hard to understand?
Reminds me of a time when I was buying a bunch of stuff at Menard's and the clerk asked if I wanted to use what sounded like the DeLongo. It took a bit before I realized that it was "the Load 'n Go", a rental truck.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
I am half-joking. Sure, I may have a thick Milwaukee accent, but every other barista I have encountered here has understood this order without my having to very carefully enunciate each phoneme and add "like the golfer" (except for the baristas at Starbucks, probably due to "Arnold Palmer" being a trademark of the Arizona tea company, but I stopped going to Starbucks after learning from my daughter that Starbucks is suing its union).zompist wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 8:16 pmI expect you're joking about being surprised... but I'd guess the problem here is the lack of [n]. She might have accepted "Arno Pama" but "Arro" threw her.Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:37 am A girl at a local coffee shop couldn't understand my pronunciation of "Arnold Palmer" (I was ordering the drink of the same name) with me repeating it more and more carefully until I pronounced it very slowly carefully and added "like the golfer". Seriously, what part of [ˌɑ̃ːʁ̃ˤɯːp̚ˈpʰɑːmʁ̩ˤ(ː)] is hard to understand?
Reminds me of a time when I was buying a bunch of stuff at Menard's and the clerk asked if I wanted to use what sounded like the DeLongo. It took a bit before I realized that it was "the Load 'n Go", a rental truck.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
I pronounce words like calm and palm with [ɑ] rather than with [a] (as my dad does) or with [ɒo̯] (like call and pall). I think I am splitting the difference between the pure non-spelling-pronounced [a] and the spelling-pronounced [ɒo̯] here, and in turn my pronunciation of Palmer is influenced accordingly.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
They vary significantly with position and environment but they are always approximants and are generally (but not always) uvular and generally (but not always) pharyngealized with prominent labialized and postalveolar-coarticulated allophones. Or if that's hard to wrap one's brain around, just think of it as a "bunched r", even though I read that "bunched r"s are really palatal...
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Now this surprises me. I can only recall hearing the former (well, its non-rhotic equivalent).
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Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
[ɑm] in -alm words has mostly been reverted by spelling pronunciation, but I'm a little surprised it ever existed in "Palmer" - unlike the l-less pronunciation of "salmonella" by analogy to "salmon", the syllable structure is different.bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 1:51 amNow this surprises me. I can only recall hearing the former (well, its non-rhotic equivalent).
Duaj teibohnggoe kyoe' quaqtoeq lucj lhaj k'yoejdej noeyn tucj.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
In the dialect here salmonella is [ˌsɛːɤ̯məˈnɜːɰə(ː)] whereas salmon is [ˈsɛ̃ːmɘ̃(ː)(n)].Nortaneous wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 9:40 am[ɑm] in -alm words has mostly been reverted by spelling pronunciation, but I'm a little surprised it ever existed in "Palmer" - unlike the l-less pronunciation of "salmonella" by analogy to "salmon", the syllable structure is different.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Not that I’ve seen.Nortaneous wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 9:40 am [ɑm] in -alm words has mostly been reverted by spelling pronunciation
…with this being a notable exception.
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Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Re-adding /l/ to PALM words which are spelled with <l> is common in NAE, but salmon I have never heard anyone pronounce with an /l/.bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 5:04 pmNot that I’ve seen.Nortaneous wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 9:40 am [ɑm] in -alm words has mostly been reverted by spelling pronunciation
…with this being a notable exception.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Palmer is related to palm, so it's hardly surprising. Anyway, it is nearly always /ˈpɑːmə(r)/ in the UK; there are some traditional dialects (SW England, IIRC) which retain /l/ in these words (and I wonder whether that is the ultimate source of the lambdic pronunciation in the US, though I accept that its recent spread is helped by the spelling) but that is definitely recessive.Nortaneous wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 9:40 am[ɑm] in -alm words has mostly been reverted by spelling pronunciation, but I'm a little surprised it ever existed in "Palmer" - unlike the l-less pronunciation of "salmonella" by analogy to "salmon", the syllable structure is different.
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Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
How did the Chancery Standard (the basis for modern Standard English) come into being? Was it based on some specific dialect, spoken in a specific region?