Tžuro grammar

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Ketsuban
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Tžuro grammar

Post by Ketsuban »

I kept going "I should go through the Tžuro grammar again and make a note of the typos I found the first time" and then not doing it, and now that I'm doing it I think Zomp fixed the ones I noticed the first time around so I get to point out pedantic formatting errors and make miscellaneous comments instead.

Is the calligraphic form influenced at all by Nastaliq? Its up-and-to-the-rightness stood out to me when I first learned about it.

Stuff that either should be bold and isn't, or stuff that isn't bold and should be.
  • mal!speak!’,
  • nebi teach > nebubu taught
  • atej > ateje emperors
  • čal > čala seas
It looks like the style you use is to put multi-word glosses in single quotes and not quote single-word glosses, but tezat ‘cutting’ violates that rule.

‘heart / ‘guts’ is missing a quote.

The sample sentence kištu paran made me want to finish off by attempting to translate some of Bohemian Rhapsody, but the lexicon doesn't have words for head (!), or trigger despite having gun (krolta).
bradrn
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Re: Tžuro grammar

Post by bradrn »

Wow, I didn’t even notice that Tžuro was released yet!

If I may add a question: does Tžuro share that weird feature in Old Skourene where verbs agree only with overt arguments and not with unspecified ones? I always wondered where that came from.
Ketsuban wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 5:31 pm Stuff that either should be bold and isn't, or stuff that isn't bold and should be.
There also seem to be a couple of glosses where the final sentence should be italic but isn’t.
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WeepingElf
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Re: Tžuro grammar

Post by WeepingElf »

I have spotted a mistake that is also in the Old Skourene grammar: an experiencer is not the same as an intransitive subject. Rather, it is a semantic role which is usually the subject, but not necessarily an intransitive one, and can be the object or something else. The English verbs to see, to hear, to feel etc. all have experiencer subjects though they are transitive. In the clause it occurs to me, me is an experiencer.
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bradrn
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Re: Tžuro grammar

Post by bradrn »

WeepingElf wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 6:37 am I have spotted a mistake that is also in the Old Skourene grammar: an experiencer is not the same as an intransitive subject. Rather, it is a semantic role which is usually the subject, but not necessarily an intransitive one, and can be the object or something else.
It’s a bit more complicated than that… in general I’d agree with you that ‘experiencer’ should be a semantic role, but I’m pretty sure I’ve seen people using it in the sense of ‘intransitive subjects’. (Too tired to look up references now, though.)
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alice
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Re: Tžuro grammar

Post by alice »

WeepingElf wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 6:37 am me is an experiencer.
"I am an experiencer", surely? (runs and hides)
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Re: Tžuro grammar

Post by hwhatting »

alice wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 2:18 pm
WeepingElf wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 6:37 am me is an experiencer.
"I am an experiencer", surely? (runs and hides)
Him find you, him spank you.
keenir
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Re: Tžuro grammar

Post by keenir »

alice wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 2:18 pm
WeepingElf wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 6:37 am me is an experiencer.
"I am an experiencer", surely? (runs and hides)
Both of you are experiencers? My goodness gracious, that can happen? :D
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Re: Tžuro grammar

Post by WeepingElf »

Oh dear, what an avalanche of silliness did I tread loose? ;)
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Re: Tžuro grammar

Post by zompist »

Ketsuban wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 5:31 pm I think Zomp fixed the ones I noticed the first time around so I get to point out pedantic formatting errors and make miscellaneous comments instead.
No problem, thank you! Should be fixed now.
Is the calligraphic form influenced at all by Nastaliq? Its up-and-to-the-rightness stood out to me when I first learned about it.
Yep!
The sample sentence kištu paran made me want to finish off by attempting to translate some of Bohemian Rhapsody, but the lexicon doesn't have words for head (!), or trigger despite having gun (krolta).
Added!
bradrn wrote:If I may add a question: does Tžuro share that weird feature in Old Skourene where verbs agree only with overt arguments and not with unspecified ones? I always wondered where that came from.
If I'm reading my own rules right... not exactly. :)

E.g. if you are talking about čelepar 'this book', you can say Atej hustu 'the emperor read it', with 'it' marked on the verb. However, in other contexts you can say Atej hust 'the emperor read (something)'.

I give the example of 'The emperor killed a ktuvok' vs. 'the ktuvok died': the latter has no ergative marking. However, Kuštu kuliggir is grammatical and means, as you would expect, 'He/she killed the ktuvok.'

So the Tžuro rule is verbs can agree with a non-overt argument, but not with an understood one.
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Re: Tžuro grammar

Post by zompist »

Also— I'm not sure where I got 'experiencer', but words have multiple meanings, and I defined exactly what I meant.

FWIW there's a lot of variation in this area... e.g. what you and I call a "semantic role", Fillmore originally called "Case" (groan), and Chomsky calls theta role. Comrie uses S for the experiencer, apparently based on 'subject'... it's a terrible choice, because 'subject' is a pretty loaded term, as explained by Comrie in the previous chapter. :P

Oh, and so far as I can see, what you're calling 'experiencer', Fillmore calls 'Dative'! But that was a long time ago.
bradrn
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Re: Tžuro grammar

Post by bradrn »

zompist wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 5:12 pm
bradrn wrote:If I may add a question: does Tžuro share that weird feature in Old Skourene where verbs agree only with overt arguments and not with unspecified ones? I always wondered where that came from.
If I'm reading my own rules right... not exactly. :)

E.g. if you are talking about čelepar 'this book', you can say Atej hustu 'the emperor read it', with 'it' marked on the verb. However, in other contexts you can say Atej hust 'the emperor read (something)'.

I give the example of 'The emperor killed a ktuvok' vs. 'the ktuvok died': the latter has no ergative marking. However, Kuštu kuliggir is grammatical and means, as you would expect, 'He/she killed the ktuvok.'

So the Tžuro rule is verbs can agree with a non-overt argument, but not with an understood one.
Hmm… what do you mean by ‘understood’ here? Surely ‘understood’ arguments must by nature be ‘non-overt’ too?

Meanwhile, can I confirm that an Old Skourene construction like *Ŋatebor ḍişnum ‘the emperor he-saw-it’ (since I can’t find an OS verb for ‘read’) would be ungrammatical in all situations? I presume you would have to say *Ŋatebor ḍişn instead.
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vegfarandi
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Re: Tžuro grammar

Post by vegfarandi »

zompist wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 5:21 pm Also— I'm not sure where I got 'experiencer', but words have multiple meanings, and I defined exactly what I meant.

FWIW there's a lot of variation in this area... e.g. what you and I call a "semantic role", Fillmore originally called "Case" (groan), and Chomsky calls theta role. Comrie uses S for the experiencer, apparently based on 'subject'... it's a terrible choice, because 'subject' is a pretty loaded term, as explained by Comrie in the previous chapter. :P

Oh, and so far as I can see, what you're calling 'experiencer', Fillmore calls 'Dative'! But that was a long time ago.
It seems to me that Comrie's S/A/P for intransitive subject/transitive subject/direct object have become pretty much standard terminology in the typology scene. Think of them more as symbols than as abbreviations for subject/agent/patient.
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Re: Tžuro grammar

Post by WeepingElf »

vegfarandi wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 12:12 pm It seems to me that Comrie's S/A/P for intransitive subject/transitive subject/direct object have become pretty much standard terminology in the typology scene. Think of them more as symbols than as abbreviations for subject/agent/patient.
Yes, this is standard terminology. And one must not confuse syntactic slots and semantic roles.
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BGMan
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Re: Tžuro grammar

Post by BGMan »

I thought the script interesting... has traits of not just Indic abugidas, but Arabic and hangul.
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